Triploid Identification

[raffensg64]

Gents,

Anybody out there who knows a definitive way of identifying triploids? Upon my arrival in Washington five years ago I was told they have their adipose fin clipped. I noticed this immediately in Amber Lake, where research was being conducted and a large sign was posted at the launch requiring all fish with clipped adipose fins be released. Additionally my partners and I caught some truly huge "clipped fin" fish in West Medical and other lakes.


Do they clip the fin on every single triploid in Washington prior to stocking? Or is this maybe something that's done in certain waters only? Just trying to determine whether I was enlightened or misinformed! Thanks.

Raff

[bigastrout]

I asked this question a while back and as far as I can tell there is no definative way to tell with out lab tests. Fish and game clips fins of Stealhead and Salmon but not Triploid Trout. However the football body shape can be a good indicator but is not definative, non-triploid trout can have the football shape as well. Most of the lakes that get stocked with Triploids are "put and take" lakes. Looking at the stocking report can give you a good indication, it will tell you the size of the Triploids that were stocked. If your fish is close to that size its most likely a Triploid.

[FishingFool]

I was told, one way to tell is the back fin. The corners are clipped or grows differntly, so it's more round instead of pointy at the ends.

[mallard83]

Two ways to tell, but not for sure. One the football shape. The other is they more often than not have shaggy/mutilated fins like CTEP trout.

[Marc Martyn]

I beg to differ with you guys. The fishing pamphlet says that all trout with a clipped adipose fin must be released. This is an indicator that it is a triploid trout. As far as I know, they clip all triploids and are not specific to a lake plant.
I think that the "football" shape of the fish in not related to being a triploid. I have caught rainbows out of many lakes (Starvation for one) that have that broad football shapes and the lake is not stocked with triploids. I believe that this related to their diet. From year to year, insect hatch intensities vary. One year the water may have a very large amount of damsel flies and the next year very few due to an extremely hard cold winter. I have always believed that the size (mass) of the trout is directly related to the amount of food, especially protein, in the water. I have never seen a "football" sized trout in a high elevation lake. The colder the water, the fewer weeds there are and a smaller insect population, ultimately meaning less food for the fish.
Also, triploids are now being stocked in many lakes, not just put & take. Personally, I can't see the logic in putting triploids in a general rules lake. The morons that fish some of these lakes who pay no attention to the catch limit, are certainly not going to release "a monster fish" just because it has a clipped fin.

[Dr Hook]

The fishing pamphlet says that all trout with a clipped adipose fin must be released.

I could not find this in the reg book, what page is it on?

[gpc]

Marc are you saying that all triploids must be released?

[Anonymous]

Why would you release a fish that can't breed? Not to mention the clipped fin indicates it's a hatchery fish and good for the keep'in. They don't clip fins on the wild ones........... Tripps are planted to be caught. They are de-sexed fish that don't breed and put all their energy into eating and growing.

[A9]

I don't believe they clip the fins on triploids...Never seen them. Salmon and steelhead, yes, but not triploids. Why clip thousands of fins per year when they are take and put fish destined for someones BBQ within a year or two (They have a huge appetite, making them easy to catch)

It would just be big waste of time. No one cares to see a clipped fin.

If they stock them the lake you are fishing, and you get a really big fat football trout, it's probably OK to say it's a triploid...

[raffensg64]

This is really odd.....here's my experience in five years of fishing in Washington. Since being told that all triploids have a clipped adipose fin, I've made a mental note to check that fin on every rainbow I land that exceeds 22-23" range. I kid you not, four out of every five have a clipped fin! There's a trend here that I simply cannot explain. And it's not just me, my partners are seeing it, too. For example, while fishing West Medical this past May, one of them landed two exceptional rainbows at 23" and 24". His words to me were "I got two monsters, 23 and 24 inches, both with clipped adipose fins". This was not an isolated incident....we've had several outings where our truly exceptional fish are clipped. Most of these were from Amber and West Medical.

A notable exception is Medical Lake (not West) where regular bows have grown extremely large and many 22-24" fish were caught, none having clipped fins. Coffeepot gives some up, too.

It makes sense that the WDFW would not clip that fin from every triploid. I agree, that would be very time consuming. I'm very curious and very stumped.....what am I seeing?

[cavdad45]

I don't have a good answer for you on that. Have you tried asking someone at the WDFW. I do know that they don't mix fish from different hatcheries in any lake. If you could find out which hatchery supplies your lake, you could call them up and get a more definitive answer. It sounds like alot of running around, but it's the only way to get the true answer.

[Marc Martyn]

I read that the fish with clipped adipose fins must be released in the listing for Amber Lake in Spokane Co..
Now, they have planted triploids in Badger, Diamond and West Medical and several other lakes and there are no special listings for releasing said fish in those lakes. This makes me think about Amber. The way that I understand it, the Inland Empire Fly Fishing Club purchased the triploids for planting in Amber. In doing so, they may have stipulated that they be catch and release only.
Raff- The best way to find out about the triploid planting program is to e-mail the game department and ask the questions you have. I tried to look up information on the planting program, but only found lakes that they planned on planting. Curt Vail could probably clarify the triploid "tagging" questions and restrictions.

Let us know what you find out.o:)

[bigastrout]

I read that the fish with clipped adipose fins must be released in the listing for Amber Lake in Spokane Co..
Now, they have planted triploids in Badger, Diamond and West Medical and several other lakes and there are no special listings for releasing said fish in those lakes. This makes me think about Amber. The way that I understand it, the Inland Empire Fly Fishing Club purchased the triploids for planting in Amber. In doing so, they may have stipulated that they be catch and release only.
Raff- The best way to find out about the triploid planting program is to e-mail the game department and ask the questions you have. I tried to look up information on the planting program, but only found lakes that they planned on planting. Curt Vail could probably clarify the triploid "tagging" questions and restrictions.

Let us know what you find out.o:)

I think you have a unique situation at Amber. I am not sure what it is, or if those fish are triploid or not but WDFW as a general rule does not clip the adispose fins of Triploid trout.

[Marc Martyn]

O.K. gentlemen.......let's all get educated! Here is an interesting article I ran across:


From the Idaho Department of Fish and Game

November 29, 2004
Are Three Better Than Two?
Joe Kozfkay, Fisheries Research Biologist
Idaho Department of Fish and Game

For many anglers, Idaho is a world-class trout fishing destination because of the hundreds of miles of pristine streams and rivers.

Idaho’s abundant, widespread and easily caught state fish, the cutthroat trout, accounts for much of the fame in angling circles. Keeping the beloved cutthroat from disappearing by mixing with another popular trout is one of the major challenges facing Idaho Fish and Game biologists, a problem that new knowledge of genetics is helping to solve.

The term “state fish” is a bit of a misnomer, as Idaho is home to three of 14 recognized species of cutthroat trout: the Yellowstone, the westslope, and the Bonneville cutthroat trout. All may be recognized by their brilliant orange slashes on the undersides of their jaws and unique spotting patterns. Yellowstone and westslope cutthroat trout are found throughout eastern, central, and northern Idaho, whereas the Bonneville cutthroat trout is found in Southeast Idaho. These populations are among the strongest remaining anywhere in the world. Recently however, some concern has arisen about their future.

The rainbow trout is another popular species with Idaho anglers due to its reputation as being a hard fighter, an active jumper, and excellent table fare. Two forms of rainbow trout are native to Idaho, the steelhead and desert redband. Additionally, Fish and Game has had an active stocking program for a non-native coastal form of rainbow trout. This stocking program has supported popular fisheries across the state for decades.

Fish and Game fisheries biologists have learned that non-native rainbow trout have the ability to breed with native cutthroat trout and thus produce hybrids or aquatic “mutts;” fish that are neither full rainbow nor full cutthroat trout. Should hybridization occur often enough over a long period of time, Idaho’s three cutthroat species might be lost forever.

To remedy this problem, Fish and Game simply quit stocking rainbows at locations with self-sustaining cutthroat populations and instead shifted those rainbows to other waters. However, rainbow trout do not always stay where you put them. It seems rainbows like their freedom and often choose to swim long distances, upstream or downstream, to find spawning areas and mates. This problem took biologists back to the drawing board. How do you stop highly mobile hatchery rainbows from spawning with wild, native cutthroat?

It turns out there is a way, but the process is a complex one. When trout spawn, the female’s eggs possess two sets of chromosomes and the male’s sperm possess one set. After the eggs are fertilized, the chromosomes recombine and each egg inherits one set of chromosomes from the female and another set from the male — similar to humans. The third set is then kicked out of the egg. Rarely in the wild, an egg will “forget” to kick out the third set and the fish becomes what is known as a triploid (possessing three sets of chromosomes). Triploid fish look, swim, jump, and taste like normal fish, except for one important difference—they never develop normal eggs or sperm and are unable to reproduce (i.e., they are sterile).

Through experimentation with this natural process, researchers found that they could create triploid trout both by exposing trout eggs to pressure and by placing trout eggs in a warm water bath shortly after fertilization. Both processes inhibit a trout egg’s ability to kick out that third set of chromosomes and voila, a triploid fish is born.

After several detailed experiments, Fish and Game biologists adapted these techniques for use in the state’s rainbow trout egg collection facility at Hayspur Fish Hatchery. And since 2001, approximately nine to 10 million rainbow trout eggs have been sterilized in this manner each year. Raised to catchable size, these fish are now being stocked in waters across the state.

So, thanks to some dedicated fish researchers, Idaho anglers can have their cake and eat it too. Popular rainbow trout fisheries can be supplemented with non-native sterile hatchery rainbow trout, and the state’s living gems: the Yellowstone, westslope, and Bonneville cutthroat trout can be protected from the threat of hybridization.

[Bodofish]

No need for further education. My first question was retorical. Tripps are bred and released to be caught with out interfering with the natural stocks. They have nothing to do with trying to grow trophy fish. They're out there to create some added excitement and hopefully boost license sales. As for "rainbows" caught with a clipped fin, they're probably young hatchery Steelhead on their first trip out to sea and should be released.
That is a nice article but has no bearing on what happens or why in Washington. They're doing a bit of horn blowing as the Tripps were happened upon at the UW during the Donaldson trout experimentation when they were trying to make a super trout. They did but they have no flavor. We're lucky they're well penned.

[Marc Martyn]

As for "rainbows" caught with a clipped fin, they're probably young hatchery Steelhead on their first trip out to sea and should be released.

That being the case, how do you explain Rainbows in Amber Lake with clipped fins?:-s

A Region 1 fish biologist is going to have to clear up these questions about triploids in eastern Washington lakes.

I personally I think that the excitement over triploid trout planted in lakes is silly. After the first planting of trips in Amber several years back, the expectations where very high and I heard a lot of disappointed anglers wondering why there weren't any "trophy sized" trout coming out of the lake.
I believe that very large trout in a lake are the results of a combination of several things: Environment, diet, fishing pressure and temperature. I don't think that a sterile trout placed in a lake is necessarily going to grow into a trophy sized trout.

Bodofish, I posted the article thinking someone might find the sterilization process that the game departments use interesting.

[Bodofish]

Marc,
I guess Amber is different, probably to try and rebuild an endangered species. That being the case they certainly aren't Tripps, they don't breed and they have a limited life span, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. In general a clipped fin means it came from a hatchery and is fair game and the only trout I have ever heard of being clipped is Steelhead (accept for Amber). Tripps in a put and take lake, not much excitement. Tripps in a large enough lake to let them grow is another story. In my opinion any lake that gets Tripps should be closed for a year. It would help a lot of lakes in general. It's a thrill to catch a 10+ pound rainbow. Tripps in a closed environment where species protection is paramount, perfect fit if you want to bring home dinner. The bottom line is they're meant to be caught and eaten. They were originally developed for aqua culture to speed the egg to table cycle and cover the what if they escape angle?

Marc, you're absolutly right about the process being interesting and the article is too, my point is it's about Id. not WA.

[MikeFishes]

If you search for "clipped" in the regs, you see that it varies from lake to lake, river to river. Most references are that you can keep the fish with clipped fins and you must release the rest. Clipped obviously means that it's a hatchery fish. Amber Lake seems to be an exception to the rule. Which is kind of odd to me, why would you want to tell people they can't take the hatchery, but native they can? Perhaps they are trying to get a semi natural population going.

[Bodofish]

Not with planted tripps. They're neuter.

[Marc Martyn]

I'll e-mail Region 1 at WDFW and try to find out why the regs were different for Amber. I think that the trips planted in Amber were paid for by the Inland Empire Fly Club. They may have requested the fins be clipped to help keep them from being harvested. I'll post the reply I get back from them.