Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

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Sharphooks
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Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Sharphooks » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:08 pm

I have some very strong opinion with regards to how Lake Sammamish should be fished as it applies to barbed vs barbless hooks. Very frankly, I'm of the opinion the upcoming WDFW fishing regulations should be changed to only allow barbless type hooks and to do so on a year around basis. Before I get into my reasoning on that matter, I would like to give all of you a chance to be heard on that subject so lets now here your voices and then I will voice my two cents worth.

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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Amx » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:23 pm

it's very stupid to generalize for all Sammamish fish! even the wdfw knew it when they did it for a while a few years ago. very inefficient and they did away with it because someone in the dept finaly smartened up.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by spokey9 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:06 pm

I'd be learyof regs done like that. My reason is this, once a standard like that is set then it will eventually creep across other lakes with similar circumstances or species. So unless there's a definable conservation need and reasoning my thoughts are why give the precedent to move fisheries to more restrictive regs.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Sharphooks » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:40 pm

Let me first say I respect all opinions here - - - pro and con. Strictly speaking from my point of view, I see Lake Sammamish as a very, very unique fishery which is situated literally in the middle of a multi-million people population center. In my opinion its fishery can't be treated the same as a similar fishery in northeaster Washington. It therefore needs to be managed under vastly more conservative fishing restrictions so as to allow the best fishing opportunity for those folks, young, old and in between, that live in its area. Beyond that, the WDFW currently has restrictions in place for our local rivers and salt water areas that strictly forbid the use of barbed hooks. I believe it only makes sense to impose that same type of restriction to the Lake Sammmamish fishery. There are two primary reasons for advocating a barbless hook fishery as I see it. The first and most important is that we have an on-going effort underway to resurrect what was once a very wonderful Kokanee fishery. I recall it fondly while fishing it back in the late 50's, 60's and into the 70's. I myself have been very active in that resurrection effort. The incidental catches of Kokanee at this time while fishing for Cutthroat with barbed hooks is not helping that cause given more than 50% will die off once they are released back to the lake as is now the law. Any way you slice it and no matter how careful one is to release such fish, its just a matter of fact the majority of such released fish are not going to survive. Putting it very simply, barbed hooks are very lethal by design. The secondary reason is the fact the Cutthroat that are caught at Lake Sammamish are strictly generated through the process of natural spawning. Its been a wonderful fishery and it needs to be maintained into the future. There are no hatchery plants of Cutthroat going into lake Sammamish. Those folks who self practice "catch and release" and who are applauded by me for that action but who do it with barbed hooks are not helping to maintain that fishery given many of those fish will not survive. Putting it very straight forward and if I had anything to say about the fishery on Lake Sammamish, all fishing for all species of fish would be done with barbless style hooks throughout the calendar year, and to go even further, I would like to see Lake sammamish as a strictly a "catch and release" fishery with barbless style hooks mandated into future years. Going that route only make very good sense to me in what now is a very, very dense population center with lots and lots of demand for fishing opportunities in local waters.

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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Mike Carey » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:02 pm

I'm in agreement that the kokanee need better protection and barbless hooks would be one way to promote that. I think a reg could be written "when fishing for trout" hooks must be barbless. That would respect the bass and perch anglers and it would be pretty obvious if you're checked in the middle of the lake trolling trout gear you're obviously not fishing for bass or perch. WDFW officers should have some latitude in enforcing such a rule. I would also add the rule that nets must be knotless and kokanee may not be removed from the water. I'm actually surprised WDFW hasn't added these types of restrictions to Lake Sammamish considering the goal of rehabilitating the kokanee population.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Mike Carey » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:06 pm

Sharphooks, have you ever contacted the WDFW biologist for Lake Sammamish and had this discussion with him/her? If not, I would encourage you to do so and report back to us what the biologist had to say. Change only takes place when someone has enough passion to turn words into action. I'm happy to follow up a conversation with the WDFW biologist after you after you do so and I'm willing to write an article on the fishery as well and get it out into the angling community. But only if you take the initiative.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by The Quadfather » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:42 pm

If your asking for people’s .02, then my opinion is that I’d be happy to see a barbless hook regulation, on Kokanee, and Cutthroat, specifically within Sammy and Lake WA.). As well as a C/R reg imposed on all non stocked species.
Specifically the Cutts. (I know, someone will call me out on perch falling under that umbrella, but let’s be serious, I’m talking about the few lakes that hold self sustaining populations of fish like these Cutts.)

I just love fishing itself too much to be concerned with whether or not I bring less fish to the boat due to a (little) more challenge of a barbless hook.

On the flip side, when I’m fishing a lake like Munn lake/Olympia for LMB,
It feels a little ridiculous to have to roll with single hook/no treble, etc.
But I realize that Munn is heavily influenced/managed by the South Sound fly anglers club, and I get where they’re coming from.... too bad they got so many nice Largies in there though.

In my opinion, a lot of the effectiveness of enforcement of this stuff comes only from having the gamies on the water. If there aren’t enough of these folks out there, then we are only able to (hope) for people to actually police themselves.

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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by spokey9 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:49 pm

So you're not for saving the perch Quad :-k [laugh]
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by The Quadfather » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:02 pm

spokey9 wrote:So you're not for saving the perch Quad :-k [laugh]
Always hard to tell when reading text/forum speak, etc. but I assume that was said with ‘Tongue-in-cheek’
Heavy LOL inserted here.

But seriously, as I was saying above... I’m really just super in support of restricting the bejeebeys out of (self sustaining fish populations.

Again, it is all about people just adding their .02, but I could care less about bringing ANY fish home from any species. When I’m bassing, they’re going back in. When I’m Cutthroat fishing, yes.. I’ve kept some. But I’d be happy personally to toss ‘em all back.
Perch I realize are hugely abundant, I don’t really care about them. Probably only because I don’t fish for them. I’m probably way over the top in my opinion, but I would happily love for people hungry for trout to chase down the WDFW’s stocking reports, and catch those guys. Hope I don’t piss anybody off here, just sayin’. #-o

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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by spokey9 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:20 pm

I wasn't being serious bud. Those tasty perch are hard to to kill off once they get good numbers in a lake, I've tried hard on lake Stevens with nothing to show for my efforts bud some good eating lol

I can see a targeted rule for the salmonids there being something that would work. I just never like blanket regs that cover everything . Unless there's a high bycatch of cutts while targeting bass,perch, etc going whole lake barbless wouldn't make a lot of sense imo.

I know as far as kokanee are concerned the bycatch while perch fishing is really low. I spent more time then I want to recall fishing perch in lakes with good koke populations and I've only caught 3 kokes by accident in that time. Honestly kokanee are pretty fragile fish so imo they shouldn't be cnr'd unless they're out of season anyways.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Sharphooks » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:40 pm

Mike Carey wrote:I'm in agreement that the kokanee need better protection and barbless hooks would be one way to promote that. I think a reg could be written "when fishing for trout" hooks must be barbless. That would respect the bass and perch anglers and it would be pretty obvious if you're checked in the middle of the lake trolling trout gear you're obviously not fishing for bass or perch. WDFW officers should have some latitude in enforcing such a rule. I would also add the rule that nets must be knotless and kokanee may not be removed from the water. I'm actually surprised WDFW hasn't added these types of restrictions to Lake Sammamish considering the goal of rehabilitating the kokanee population.
Thanks very much, Mike, for your valued contribution to this discussion. .

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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Sharphooks » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:55 pm

Amx wrote:it's very stupid to generalize for all Sammamish fish! even the wdfw knew it when they did it for a while a few years ago. very inefficient and they did away with it because someone in the dept finaly smartened up.
Amx, know that I recommend my afore mentioned barbless hook restriction across all fish species at this time so as to simplify WDFW management of such a restriction. In due course and once our Kokanee resurrection effort has been completed with success (or with failure), that restriction could then be modified as appropriate.

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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Amx » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:09 pm

Sharphooks wrote:
Amx wrote:it's very stupid to generalize for all Sammamish fish! even the wdfw knew it when they did it for a while a few years ago. very inefficient and they did away with it because someone in the dept finaly smartened up.
Amx, know that I recommend my afore mentioned barbless hook restriction across all fish species at this time so as to simplify WDFW management of such a restriction. In due course and once our Kokanee resurrection effort has been completed with success (or with failure), that restriction could then be modified as appropriate.
It's NOT appropriate at ANY TIME. Wasn't before when they tried it and never will be.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Sharphooks » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:26 pm

Mike Carey wrote:Sharphooks, have you ever contacted the WDFW biologist for Lake Sammamish and had this discussion with him/her? If not, I would encourage you to do so and report back to us what the biologist had to say. Change only takes place when someone has enough passion to turn words into action. I'm happy to follow up a conversation with the WDFW biologist after you after you do so and I'm willing to write an article on the fishery as well and get it out into the angling community. But only if you take the initiative.
Mike, your recommended pathway to hopefully bring about change on this now discussed matter is a very good one, however, I believe it needs to be carried out by someone who has more youth and energy in their favor than a person like myself who soon will be saying goodbye to my 70's. Hopefully that person will show up here and take the reins as you have suggested. I see my role here as one who is simply bringing this matter to the forefront only. I only wish that I could carry it further, however, its simply not practical for me at this point in my life and I do hope you understand. Please know that I've already over the course of a number of years have worked diligently with many others fine folks to resurrect the Kokanee fishery on Lake Sammamish. I therefore consider my main thrust effort to now be limited to what I've already done.

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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by hewesfisher » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:34 am

I agree with AMX and see no need to punish other Sammamish anglers not targeting cutts or kokanee. If the restoration effort is so critical, and the kokanee fishery so fragile, CLOSE THAT FISHERY. If the cutts are in same jeapordy, CLOSE fishing for them too.

This was done for Priest Lake and Pend Orielle in Idaho years ago and both now have kokanee fisheries again though nothing like they used to be.

One thing to keep in mind, the fishery will never return to the glory days of 40 or 50yrs ago primarily because of the "multi-million population center" and significantly larger number of resource users aka anglers.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Amx » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:38 am

The ONLY way to 'fix' it is to to breed MILLIONS of the fish and stock the lake, and lots of other lakes too.

barbless hooks won't work for BEANS! stopping fishing for those fish and/or any other fish in the lake will do NOTHING for the fishery, just piss of THOUSANDS of anglers!

not to mention the thousands of dollars that Bass angler would have to spend modifying their $100 lures and $5 lures that will screw up the action of those lures and so not get bites on those lures.

the time the people did the regulations I changed hooks on some crankbaits and got NO BITES AT ALL!

Then there are the jigs with squished barbs which ruined the jigs. just TRY to fish a jig in the brush and pads and under a dock with a fish on the hook, and have to give slack so the fish can hopefully swim back around a pileing or pad stems or limbs of a tree fallen in the water, then have the fish get off because of no barb.

how would YOU like to spend $100 on a swim bait to have a fish take it under a dock, into a tree and around a piling or limbs, then you have to slack off the line to let the fish hopefully swim back around. but the fish'll get off most of the time with a barbless. then you have a lure in there with exposed hooks and it'll get hooked on a limb or piling. Then you'll have to swim in there and try to get it, or break off your $100 or $5 lure. How many lures are YOU willing to loose each day of fishing???? 5 10 20? And this could be with landing no fish, just how much fun is that?? NONE!!!!!!!!!

MOST of us like to see the fish, touch the fish, take a picture of a big fish, and happily watch it swim away on the live release

barbless hooks are just plain STUPID for our fishing.

open water where kokes and cuts and salmon just run around in circles and no pilings to swim around barbless would be ok, but ONLY in open water
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Sideburns » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:35 pm

Ive got a little different point of view on the subject.... I am doubtful that changing the fishing regulations will have much effect on the fishery at all. This is not to say that any fishery can survive a no limits free for all, as we all know what's happened in american fisheries' history. I have seen too many small lakes fish disappear even when it seems that nobody is fishing for them. Some lakes fish disappear even when the lake has been stocked with fish and harvested for many years in the same manor.

I see our recent kokanee and trout fisheries declines as being caused by humans, but in more indirect ways, like global warming, spread of nonnative fish, spread of nonnative organisms, increasing numbers of high horsepower watercraft, fertilizers/etc. that causes major changes microorganisms and algae blooms, spawning habitat destruction...... I could go on all day.......

To really pinpoint the cause of specific fisheries declines, and come up with solutions, it will take a major shift in the monetary priorities of our public. I think our wdfw is doing what they can with what they've got, but I also think were generally clueless when it comes to all of the intricacies of the food chains, indirect effects and life cycles of these fish.

Ive only been fishing since the 80's, but here's a couple examples of what Ive seen that have shaped my opinion.

In the 80's I remember crawfish could be caught in great numbers in just about all of the lakes and rivers in south king and pierce counties. Ive been trapping crawfish fairly unsuccessfully for almost a decade now. I do not believe that they have been overharvested, but I do believe that the ecosystem/temp/food chain has changed to not support these creatures anymore.

About 65,000 Kokanee have been stocked as fry in lake meridian for many years, in great numbers. It was a great fishery. At its peak, say 2013-2015, maybe a maximum 100-200 fish were taken from the lake per day during late spring-mid summer, with little effect on overall fish numbers. Then we had the really hot weather in the summer of 2015. From 2016 and on, I have only heard of about a half dozen being caught. The lake now turns over with much more algae and crud than before, and the cutthroat population seems to have increased 10 fold! Again, I believe the ecosystem has changed for the worse for the kokanee population. Similar story for lake wilderness, lake sawyer, deep lake, clear lake.....
This is a very drastic example, but all of the regulation changes in the world would have had very little effect on the kokanee survival.
I think pinpointing what these changes are, and how the fish have suffered from them will be detrimental in the future of freshwater sport fishing..............

(ps I'd be all for a barbless trout/kokanee fishing rule, I'm just pessimistic that it will be enough)
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by spokey9 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:57 pm

[quote="Sideburns"] The lake now turns over with much more algae and crud than before [/quote]

The usual culprit for this in urban lakes is fertilizer runoff from the pretty yard crowd that then fuels algae blooms. Top that off with various pesticides and you see the lower end of the food chain die off and since kokes feed on that...they then starve. So if kokanee are your concern maybe target the regs on those things in the watershed before a new fishing reg. You'll see a bigger bang for your buck on if you could get traction.

I'm not sure what the max depth if Meriden is but in D if a lake doesn't have the depths kokanee need to find cool water in the summer, then there should be a reconsideration about stocking those lakes. I know of several lakes that the bright idea of a new kokanee fishery were being tossed around about and most of the potential new lakes had max depths of 30ft and that rainbows struggle to do well because of lack of cool water.
Last edited by spokey9 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Amx » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:35 pm

Max depth of Meridian is 90 feet, and not a whole lot of it at that depth.
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Re: Mandate Barbless Hooks For Lake Sammamish

Post by Amx » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:41 pm

Bass fishing and crappy/perch fishing on Sawyer has been going downhill since the mid '90s, since Black Diamond's sewage treatment plant failed, I think in '92, and poisoned the lake. Use to have bright green grass all winter, now MOST of the grass is brown or black and smells BAD all summer, and all year round. There use to be no green slime balls on Sawyer, now it gets worse every year, winter and summer.

My bass fishing on Sawyer this past summer was lousy by my standards, even on Sammamish my Bass fishing has been slow and no big fish on Sammamish for me.
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