Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

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Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by FishingFool » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm

I bought some batteries direct from China. It's two batteries for a future 24v trolling motor. The batteries showed up today and my trolling motor wont be here for a month or 2.

I dont have any other 24v devices to test these batteries with. I did confirm they put out 24v, which is actually 26.3v. Each battery shows 13.2v, even though the LCD display claims it's at 82%. As of right now, my portable 10amp Minn Kota charger wont charge these in their current condition. I think it's bc it's detecting the higher voltage, so it think it's full.

They weigh about 15# each. They are listed as 12v60aH batteries. Significant weight savings. I want the batteries back as soon as I get my trolling motor. You're allowed to use these on your trolling motors only. It's an at your own risk. There is zero tech support or liability protection. I have no idea if your boat or house will burn down because of these. [cursing]

Any takers? lol

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by TrackerPro16 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:11 pm

If I may ask, how much were they? I haven’t got the boat un pickled yet but when I do I fish mornings usually on Lake Wa. We could both go trolling and see how they do. I have a 24v Terrova and my batteries are strapped down on my deck so they would be easy in and out.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by FishingFool » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:54 pm

The pair cost me $780 shipped to my door. I have one of those 12v air pumps. I currently have 1 hooked up to it, to see how it does. The pump says not to run it for longer than 20 mins. Then take a 10 min rest and do it again. According to the spec online, it has an 28amp draw.

Let's see if anything happens to it... lol

https://www.airhead.com/12v-high-pressure-pump.html

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by Sideburns » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:06 pm

Dont have a 24v motor to offer, but Ive been dying to play with one of those 12v lead acid replacement lion batteries. Even thought about trying to make one out of 18650 battery cells.

As far as your voltage reading, Lithium Iron Phosphate cells are "supposed" to be fully charged at 3.6 static voltage per cell, so (x4) 14.4v in the case of your 12v battery configuration. But in practice, they usually drop to 3.3v per cell (13.2v) after a few days. They will stay at a higher voltage for longer if you hold them at 3.65v per cell (14.4v) for longer at the end of charging, but they drop to 3.3v per cell very quickly in use..... then stay there for most of their discharge cycle because of their very flat discharge curve.

Its very hard to tell how charged a LiFePO4 battery is by the voltage, 100% charged=3.6v per cell / 95%-25% =3.3v / 0%=2.5v ....then a few hours after draining to 2.5v they may read 3.2v !?

What's your plan for a charger?
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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by FishingFool » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:53 pm

Sideburns wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:06 pm
Dont have a 24v motor to offer, but Ive been dying to play with one of those 12v lead acid replacement lion batteries. Even thought about trying to make one out of 18650 battery cells.

As far as your voltage reading, Lithium Iron Phosphate cells are "supposed" to be fully charged at 3.6 static voltage per cell, so (x4) 14.4v in the case of your 12v battery configuration. But in practice, they usually drop to 3.3v per cell (13.2v) after a few days. They will stay at a higher voltage for longer if you hold them at 3.65v per cell (14.4v) for longer at the end of charging, but they drop to 3.3v per cell very quickly in use..... then stay there for most of their discharge cycle because of their very flat discharge curve.

Its very hard to tell how charged a LiFePO4 battery is by the voltage, 100% charged=3.6v per cell / 95%-25% =3.3v / 0%=2.5v ....then a few hours after draining to 2.5v they may read 3.2v !?

What's your plan for a charger?
I tried a brand new Minn Kota MK345PC on these batteries. It did start charging them. It brought them up to 14.4v before the charger went into maintenance mode. After sitting overnight, they drop to 14.1-14.2v.

After several days, they've been sitting at 13.9v since. The built in display does claim it's at 100%.

I had my DMM hooked up to 1 of the batteries while charging to view voltage from the display and DMM. I watched it receiving 13.7v to start off with in the first hour. Then slowly rising. I think by almost 2 hrs, it was at 14.2v. Then once it hit 14.5v, after several minutes, it stopped and showed it was done.

My understanding is, the lithiums prefer bulk charge of 14.4v. So I've ordered a 3-bank Dual Pro charger with 2 banks that have a lithium profile.

I'm going to try and drain these batteries again and see how they charge up once the charger shows up.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by Sideburns » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:18 pm

Bulk charge should work well at that voltage, I wonder what the effect of a float charge of 13.1 (common 12v maintainer voltage) would be on those? I would guess that those batts have some charge built in charge control too? Interested in your results, good luck.
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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by The Quadfather » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:14 am

I don’t want to derail the thread, but can I ask what is different or special about these batteries? It sounds like they are a special order,fairly expensive, etc.
Just wondered what made you look into the purchase.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by Sideburns » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:47 pm

More power- At high power, 50% battery life left, the voltage to the trolling motor might be less than 10v with a conventional battery, with a LiFePO4 lithium battery the voltage will likely be close to 13v (using a 12v motor).

less than 1/2 the weight- in a small boat that equates to more power and longer life too. Some lithium batteries up to 1/10 weight of lead acid.

much smaller size - Free up more space or just have more room for more batteries

lifespan - a good lead acid battery has a 500 cycle life span. A lifep04 battery will last for thousands of cycles, 5x longer life span.

efficiency - lithium batteries take a much higher % of the power that the charger supplies to it, great for solar charging, and can be charged faster.

maintenance free- no water to fill

flat discharge curve - conventional batteries will have less and less power (voltage) as the battery is depleted. Lifepo4 batteries will be more consistent.


There are probable close to as many cons as pros. Fragile in certain ways, compatibility with current technology, new unproven technology, expense, other technologies could obsolete soon after investment......
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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by FishingFool » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:07 am

The Quadfather wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:14 am
I don’t want to derail the thread, but can I ask what is different or special about these batteries? It sounds like they are a special order,fairly expensive, etc.
Just wondered what made you look into the purchase.
Sideburns covered the pros and cons of it but here's my situation.

I use to remove my batteries after every fishing trip and recharge them. Total of 2 batteries so it was about 120# or so.

Upgrading and will have 3 batteries. I needed 2 new trolling batteries. I prefer AGMs so I don't have to worry about a leaky battery or adding water. A good quality 100aH AGM battery is going to run about $300 after taxes and core fees. I personally was looking at the group 31 Duracell at Battery Plus. Was also comparing it to VMAX batteries too. I started poking around looking at lithium for saving my back. I didn't want to lug around 200# of batteries. Almost ordered Battleborn 50aH batteries. Great 10 year warranty,assembled in USA.

With lead acid, you only get to draw down about half the rated aH. With lithium, it's 80-95%. That's why you can get a smaller battery but perform just as well.

While looking at Battleborn, fell into the rabbit hole and found Chinese manufacturers, since most, if not all LifePo4 cells are made in China. I found these. Contacted the company and they were prompt with answers. Took the chance, and bought them. They are 40% cheaper with 20% more capacity, compared to Battle born.
These batteries do have a 5 year warranty but support for it is very questionable.

Now compared to the AGMs I was looking at. These lithium are only 18% more in cost, weighs 75% less, with equivalent capacity. 110# less weight right off the bat.

Funny thing is, now the weight savings isn't that huge of a factor for me. I picked up a small inverter generator to power the onboard charger. But it'll be nice to know I can grab these with ease. About the size and weight of a bowling ball. There will still be a single 70# AGM battery in the mix.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by TrackerPro16 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:56 am

I have been watching this with interest as I remove my batts as well and the 31’s are heavy!

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by TrackerPro16 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:07 am

I have the Interstate AGM 31’s and wonder if for trolling the 60 AH you got would actually be the same ‘usable’ power availability for all day trolling?
While interested, LI’s have not been something I have studied. I need to check and see if I have any chargers that will work with them too. The weight of the 31’s and my old bod REALLY do not like each other these days...

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by hewesfisher » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:09 am

Might want to confirm those batteries are actually Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) instead of Lithium Ion (LiCoO2) as labeled. The chemistry is different between the two and, from my research, it appears KS Energy sells both but labels them accordingly.

Good read - https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... ithium_ion

Li-Ion is great for reasons mentioned where weight is a concern and is all the rage in the tournament angler world, but, the cost is, IMHO, prohibitive for the average angler.

To replace my gp31 AGM rated @ 1150CCA with the closest equivalent lithium it would be $2,000. My last gp31 AGM lasted 6yrs, cost $279, and was still working fine when I decided to replace it two months ago simply due to age - I didn't want to experience the dreaded no warning "click" 30mi from the ramp. Even so, it never once failed to start my engine and run all my gear without running the main. I'm using it at home as a backup and jump battery. The original was a Sears PM-1 which was a rebadged Odyssey 31M-PC2150 and I replaced it with a Northstar 31AGM, also rated @ 1150CCA, for $387, free shipping, and no tax.

I can buy five gp31 AGM batteries, each with a 3yr free replacement warranty, for the price of one equivalent lithium battery. To break even on free replacement warranty a lithium battery would have to come with a 15yr free replacement warranty and they don't. On their closest equivalent battery, RELion has a 36month full replacement warranty, just like Northstar, and Lithium Pros M-series has 4yrs full replacement, just like Odyssey. Both lithium sources have a pro-rated warranty of 24mos and 36mos respectively after the full replacement time period expires.

If I got 6yrs out of each of those AGMs, that would be 30yrs. Doubt I'll be able to fish 30yrs in the future and the odds are very high I won't be around anymore (92 is a very rare age in my family tree). Not being critical, just practical, and for me, it doesn't make $ense.
Phil

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by The Quadfather » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:15 am

FishingFool,
This is really such a great thread. I’m sorry that I don’t have a 24V device to help test these, but I feel like I have really become aware and learned something here.
Just every once in awhile I come across a situation where another person (who’s judgement I trust), has seemingly done all the homework. (My last couple of Sonars were bought sight unseen, strictly based off Rsea’s legwork, [thumbup]—Thx Randy.
I completely understood your statement of falling into the “Rabbit hole”
I really hope these work out for you, and I hope you will follow up with giving us your user review at some point.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by TrackerPro16 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:47 am

hewesfisher, I think the weight is the issue with a lot of us ‘more mature’, hmmm, forget that [thumbdn] , ‘older’ folk with a lot of wear and tear. The ‘cost to weight’ ratio has become more important to me the last few years. It would be well worth it to keep from getting hurt and not be able to work or go play.
Last edited by TrackerPro16 on Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by TrackerPro16 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:49 am

Hmmm. Double post. Can’t see how to dump it.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by Sideburns » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:59 am

hewesfisher wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:09 am
Might want to confirm those batteries are actually Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) instead of Lithium Ion (LiCoO2) as labeled. The chemistry is different between the two and, from my research, it appears KS Energy sells both but labels them accordingly.

Good read - https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... ithium_ion

Li-Ion is great for reasons mentioned where weight is a concern and is all the rage in the tournament angler world, but, the cost is, IMHO, prohibitive for the average angler.

To replace my gp31 AGM rated @ 1150CCA with the closest equivalent lithium it would be $2,000. My last gp31 AGM lasted 6yrs, cost $279, and was still working fine when I decided to replace it two months ago simply due to age - I didn't want to experience the dreaded no warning "click" 30mi from the ramp. Even so, it never once failed to start my engine and run all my gear without running the main. I'm using it at home as a backup and jump battery. The original was a Sears PM-1 which was a rebadged Odyssey 31M-PC2150 and I replaced it with a Northstar 31AGM, also rated @ 1150CCA, for $387, free shipping, and no tax.

I can buy five gp31 AGM batteries, each with a 3yr free replacement warranty, for the price of one equivalent lithium battery. To break even on free replacement warranty a lithium battery would have to come with a 15yr free replacement warranty and they don't. On their closest equivalent battery, RELion has a 36month full replacement warranty, just like Northstar, and Lithium Pros M-series has 4yrs full replacement, just like Odyssey. Both lithium sources have a pro-rated warranty of 24mos and 36mos respectively after the full replacement time period expires.

If I got 6yrs out of each of those AGMs, that would be 30yrs. Doubt I'll be able to fish 30yrs in the future and the odds are very high I won't be around anymore (92 is a very rare age in my family tree). Not being critical, just practical, and for me, it doesn't make $ense.
Yeah, definitely not the best bang for your buck, yet. These technologies are coming down in price quickly though. Buy one now, might be 1/2 the cost next year? Lifepo4 is a unique lithium technology. 3.3v per cell makes it multiply to come close enough to a 12v battery to work, vs 3.7v per cell for most other lithium batteries - But lifepo4 would be a poor choice for someone who needs 1150cca (for those who dont know, 1150cca is enough current to start several avg boat engines at once!) If you did try to discharge a lifepo4 battery at very high current, it would go flat in seconds, then likely rebound to its charged state shortly after. (if it didn't destroy the battery) All of the current is not readily available for rapid discharge. (a major con of the technology) There are other lithium batteries that will fit the bill, but charging with an alternator from an engine's charging system gets complicated.
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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by TrackerPro16 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:54 pm

Can you elaborate on the charging and battery types between the Lithium’s? I would be interested in them but do not want to run into other problems. I do not usually charge in my boat but my kicker has a charging circuit. Thanks!

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by FishingFool » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:39 pm

The Quadfather wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:15 am
FishingFool,
This is really such a great thread. I’m sorry that I don’t have a 24V device to help test these, but I feel like I have really become aware and learned something here.
Just every once in awhile I come across a situation where another person (who’s judgement I trust), has seemingly done all the homework. (My last couple of Sonars were bought sight unseen, strictly based off Rsea’s legwork, [thumbup]—Thx Randy.
I completely understood your statement of falling into the “Rabbit hole”
I really hope these work out for you, and I hope you will follow up with giving us your user review at some point.
Thanks Quadfather. I'm hoping for the best but I am wary and aware of the potential issues dealing with these. I'll put these into service as soon as my new rig arrives. :nemo:

I did order a few 12v/24v 100w and 400w lights to test and drain these batteries.

hewesfisher wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:09 am
Might want to confirm those batteries are actually Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) instead of Lithium Ion (LiCoO2) as labeled. The chemistry is different between the two and, from my research, it appears KS Energy sells both but labels them accordingly.

Good read - https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... ithium_ion

Li-Ion is great for reasons mentioned where weight is a concern and is all the rage in the tournament angler world, but, the cost is, IMHO, prohibitive for the average angler.

To replace my gp31 AGM rated @ 1150CCA with the closest equivalent lithium it would be $2,000. My last gp31 AGM lasted 6yrs, cost $279, and was still working fine when I decided to replace it two months ago simply due to age - I didn't want to experience the dreaded no warning "click" 30mi from the ramp. Even so, it never once failed to start my engine and run all my gear without running the main. I'm using it at home as a backup and jump battery. The original was a Sears PM-1 which was a rebadged Odyssey 31M-PC2150 and I replaced it with a Northstar 31AGM, also rated @ 1150CCA, for $387, free shipping, and no tax.

I can buy five gp31 AGM batteries, each with a 3yr free replacement warranty, for the price of one equivalent lithium battery. To break even on free replacement warranty a lithium battery would have to come with a 15yr free replacement warranty and they don't. On their closest equivalent battery, RELion has a 36month full replacement warranty, just like Northstar, and Lithium Pros M-series has 4yrs full replacement, just like Odyssey. Both lithium sources have a pro-rated warranty of 24mos and 36mos respectively after the full replacement time period expires.

If I got 6yrs out of each of those AGMs, that would be 30yrs. Doubt I'll be able to fish 30yrs in the future and the odds are very high I won't be around anymore (92 is a very rare age in my family tree). Not being critical, just practical, and for me, it doesn't make $ense.
I have no idea how to confirm if these are actually LiFePO4. I'm just going by the specs provided by the vendor.

Yes, lithium batteries are not the best bang for your buck. There are so many options out there. Wet lead acid, AGMs, Gels, etc. All at different price points, capacities, and warranties. Different situations for everyone, different finances, different priorities. The way I see it, it's just another option that's available. lithiums have been coming down in prices. I highly doubt it'll be half in a year though.

Running lithiums as a starting battery is still a bit iffy, but it appears Relion does have 1 that's compatible now. RB100-HP, but that's $1300. Yikes! That's the reason I'm still sticking with an AGM for my starting battery.

I'm not a pro angler. Just a weekend warrior. I dont need to put fish on the table/livewell.

The only warranty I'm concerned about is on the motor and boat itself. Batteries, typically considered a wear and tear item. I've been fortunate with batteries though. They were the Cabela's brand AGMs. They were the rebrand UB batteries. I pulled the Cabelas sticker to see what was hidden behind it lol. 1 was 7 years old, other was 8 years old. I assume they are still ticking for the new owner. In my limited experience, I've yet to utilize the warranty any marine or auto batteries.
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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by FishingFool » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:56 pm

TrackerPro16 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:54 pm
Can you elaborate on the charging and battery types between the Lithium’s? I would be interested in them but do not want to run into other problems. I do not usually charge in my boat but my kicker has a charging circuit. Thanks!
It's hard to judge the current capacity of lithium batteries. Can't tell just by the voltage like with AGMs or other lead acids. My portable pancake compressor looking Minn Kota charger would not charge these lithium batteries, when they were indicated at 82% on the built-in LCD. When I connected it and turned on the charger, it instantly went into maintenance mode, showing battery fully charged.

Testing out the batteries in the same condition with the Minn Kota MK345PC battery charger did confirm it was charging the batteries. I just felt I wasnt fully charging the lithium batteries to full capacity, due to the lower than expected resting voltage and incorrectly charging profile. Maybe I'm wrong and wasted money on a the Dual Battery charger. But I dont feel it as a loss. The way I see it, I'm still getting a high quality battery charger. It's designed for this type of battery. If i need to change the charging profile on any of the banks, I can send it back to Dual Pro and they will reprogram it for a small fee.

Concerning outboards charging the lithium, well no idea, I havent jumped into that pool yet, lol. I dont think that's actually issue. Those alternator puts out something like 13.3-14.1v if i'm not mistaken depending on your outboard spec. That's enough to add some juices to the batteries. They can take it. I think It's the starting the engine is the issue. The large burst of energy required.

The technology continues to mature. New options, new breakthroughs. Can only be good for the consumers.

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Re: Who Wants To Test My Imported LiFePO4 Batteries....

Post by hewesfisher » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:57 pm

RELiON's charge info for the RB100-HP, 100ah battery:
Charge Specifications
Recommended Charge Current 50 A
Maximum Charge Current 100 A
Recommended Charge Voltage 14.2 V - 14.6 V
Lithium Pros M3110, 110ah battery has 1410 watt hours and a claimed 1500MCA equivalent. The RB100-HP has 1280 watt hours, and a 2-sec 800amp peak discharge current which would meet my engine's minimum required CCA assuming it starts in 2 seconds which it usually does.

Like I said in my last reply, not being critical, just pragmatic. The tech is too new for my comfort zone and wallet so I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon. I know a lot of boaters who won't buy AGM (due to price) and choose instead to buy a new wet cell battery every year to 18months.

For now, I'll watch this one from the sidelines. [wink]
Phil

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