Which mapping system for roosevelt??

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whatza Duckworth??
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Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by whatza Duckworth?? » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:55 am

Was wondering which mapping app.,or card shows the best detail for lake roosevelt. I'm using a lowrance FF and have the navionics gold map card in it, but shows absolutely no details on roosevelt.
Thanks , Randy

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hewesfisher
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by hewesfisher » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:44 pm

I have the Navionics Platinum and it is very detailed.
Phil

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tbrinks
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by tbrinks » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:07 am

+1 on the Navionics Platinum. Also, FYI...the Navionics+ Regions West will have the same level of detail for a lower cost. Only difference is you will not get sat overlay or the 3D view.

Here is an example of the detail on Roosevelt.

Image
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whatza Duckworth??
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by whatza Duckworth?? » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:05 pm

Thank you very much guys, that is WAAAAY more.detailed than what I have!!

Randy

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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by tbrinks » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:21 pm

whatza Duckworth?? wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:05 pm
Thank you very much guys, that is WAAAAY more.detailed than what I have!!

Randy
No prob. The good thing about Navionics is that they are constantly being updated with more data from users.
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Larry3215
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by Larry3215 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:54 am

tbrinks wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:21 pm
whatza Duckworth?? wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:05 pm
Thank you very much guys, that is WAAAAY more.detailed than what I have!!

Randy
No prob. The good thing about Navionics is that they are constantly being updated with more data from users.
I just downloaded the newest Garmin Lakevu charts. It looks to me like Garmin has finally merged the Navionic data into the Garmin charts. Ive looked at several lakes, including that section of Roosevelt you posted above and the contours are almost identical. Just very minor differences.

Do you know if thats true or not Tyler?

I have another question for you - how does Navionics handle user data in areas where the water level changes on a daily basis - like Roosevelt and most of the lakes around the PNW? Roosevelt can change depth by 30 plus feet at times.

I know from my time using Garmin Qickdraw that 99.99% of users have no clue how to compensate for water level changes in lakes, or tides in the salt. This makes Quickdraw charts from someone you dont know pretty much useless to outright dangerous.

As a result, I am very leery about "user data" when it comes to depths.

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hewesfisher
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by hewesfisher » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:54 am

Warning that reservoir levels are subject to change and that displayed data is based on full pool elevation of 1290'. Roosevelt can, and usually does, drop 55' - 60' every year. I've launched at 1230' once or twice in the past 10yrs.

User interpretation of displayed data is required, just like a printed map.

Reservoir level as of 6am today was 1267.7'.
Phil

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Larry3215
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by Larry3215 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:51 am

hewesfisher wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:54 am
Warning that reservoir levels are subject to change and that displayed data is based on full pool elevation of 1290'. Roosevelt can, and usually does, drop 55' - 60' every year. I've launched at 1230' once or twice in the past 10yrs.

User interpretation of displayed data is required, just like a printed map.

Reservoir level as of 6am today was 1267.7'.
Thats exactly my point.

Your average Joe fisherman has no clue how to adjust his sonar for those varying water levels. Most of the time he wont want to make those adjustments anyway. Most folks want to know what the actual water depth is not what it would be at full pool. So Joe fisherman fishes the area that Tyler linked to above when the water level is say 50 ft low, then turns his "user data" in to Navionics. How does Navionics know what the water level was that day, in that spot, in the area he was fishing? The full pool water depth where he was fishing may have been 100 ft, but his "user data" will say its 50 ft deep. You come in next week with this new user data, and wonder why the depths you see on your sonar dont agree with the chart.

In other words - this new user data will corrupt the real depths that should be showing on the charts.

There are zero notes anywhere saying which contour lines are from user data and which were from a proper survey.

How can that user data get integrated into the Navionics or Garmin charts accurately? Its the same deal in tidal areas. There is no way to know what the exact tide level was when someone records depths in tidal areas. How can Navionics or Garmin tell whats true and whats not?

IF Joe fisherman knows how to do it, its possible to set the depth offset on most sonars so they compensate for the actual water depth vrs the 'full pool' or 'mean low water level' in tidal areas. But do you know how to do that and more importantly - do you do it before sending in your depth data? Im willing to bet less than 1 in 500 fishermen know that even needs to be done and fewer still know how to do it.

Anyway, Im curious to know how Navionics handles this. Garmin support wont answer the question.

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hewesfisher
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by hewesfisher » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:16 am

Specific to Roosevelt, why would anyone adjust their sonar for changes in water levels when the charts, paper or electronic, are ALL referenced to 1290' above sea level? If "average Joe fisherman" doesn't know he's fishing on a reservoir where the levels change, well, maybe he shouldn't be.

Have never adjusted my sonar based on water level as it serves no purpose to me. I know how to interpret what I see, and also know that underwater structure will be closer to, or above the surface, if water level drops.

Actual water depth IS displayed on the sonar regardless of water level. Example, I know one specific spot is 330' deep at full pool, so what depth shows on my sonar display when level reservoir is 1260'? Knowing the level and the fact ALL underwater structure is referenced to 1290' it's just simple math right? My display shows it's 300' from my transducer to the bottom just like it should.

I don't want any chart data not referenced to full pool level of 1290' above sea level. That's a solid reference I can trust, whereas some unknown "user's" reported depth data on any given day with, or without, level is not. How would I know any such report would be trustworthy and why would Garmin or Navionics trust that input?

Folks who fish reservoirs like Roosevelt know to check level before heading out. Sort of like making sure the plug is in your boat before sliding it off the trailer or checking the tide schedule before using a boat launch that will be out of the water at low tide so you're back before low tide. Planning and common sense.
Phil

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Larry3215
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by Larry3215 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:03 pm

You misunderstand what Im saying Phil. I agree with everything you say.

The problem is Navionics, and now Garmin, is drawing contours based on data from ignorant users. People record the depth info as they fish, then turn that data in - without ever correcting for the current water level - which will almost certainly NOT be full pool.

There is no way for Navionics or Garmin to know what the lake level was at on the day a recording was made. So how do they correct for that when they use that "user data"?

I have to run now, but I will explain more later.

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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by hewesfisher » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:20 am

Larry3215 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:03 pm
You misunderstand what Im saying Phil. I agree with everything you say.

The problem is Navionics, and now Garmin, is drawing contours based on data from ignorant users. People record the depth info as they fish, then turn that data in - without ever correcting for the current water level - which will almost certainly NOT be full pool.

There is no way for Navionics or Garmin to know what the lake level was at on the day a recording was made. So how do they correct for that when they use that "user data"?

I have to run now, but I will explain more later.
Maybe I did, I thought you were advocating updating contours from users, which on a reservoir like Roosevelt, would be senseless. I really don't think Navionics or Garmin would accept user data for reservoirs such as Roosevelt as there would be no way to validate actual reservoir level at time of report. The liability risk would be huge.

My apologies for misinterpreting your post.
Phil

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Larry3215
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by Larry3215 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:56 am

hewesfisher wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:20 am
Maybe I did, I thought you were advocating updating contours from users, which on a reservoir like Roosevelt, would be senseless. I really don't think Navionics or Garmin would accept user data for reservoirs such as Roosevelt as there would be no way to validate actual reservoir level at time of report. The liability risk would be huge.

My apologies for misinterpreting your post.
tbrinks wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:21 pm

No prob. The good thing about Navionics is that they are constantly being updated with more data from users.
As you can see from Tylers response - they do indeed take input from users on Roosevelt, and ALL lakes, rivers, AND tidal/marine areas. Navionis and now Garmin, have been advertising that for years as though its a good thing.

I have examined "user data" from the old Humminbird program and more recently from Garmins Quickdraw. The contours generated by users is not even close to the ones on the charts except by accident.

It might be possible for them to check what the water level was at the dam on that day, at 7AM. That data is updated I think once a day, but I seriously doubt they bother. They would need a dozen people doing that full time - which would cost a lot of $$$. I know they cant possibly check in marine areas or other lakes or rivers that dont have full time monitored water levels. And yet they still use that "user data"'

So, my question to Tyler still stands - how does Navionics and now Garmin (who owns Navionics), validate and/or correct this "user data" to be sure the contours are accurate?

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tbrinks
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by tbrinks » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:09 am

Larry3215 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:54 am
tbrinks wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:21 pm
whatza Duckworth?? wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:05 pm
Thank you very much guys, that is WAAAAY more.detailed than what I have!!

Randy
No prob. The good thing about Navionics is that they are constantly being updated with more data from users.
I just downloaded the newest Garmin Lakevu charts. It looks to me like Garmin has finally merged the Navionic data into the Garmin charts. Ive looked at several lakes, including that section of Roosevelt you posted above and the contours are almost identical. Just very minor differences.

Do you know if thats true or not Tyler?

I have another question for you - how does Navionics handle user data in areas where the water level changes on a daily basis - like Roosevelt and most of the lakes around the PNW? Roosevelt can change depth by 30 plus feet at times.

I know from my time using Garmin Qickdraw that 99.99% of users have no clue how to compensate for water level changes in lakes, or tides in the salt. This makes Quickdraw charts from someone you dont know pretty much useless to outright dangerous.

As a result, I am very leery about "user data" when it comes to depths.
To answer your question about the Garmin LakeVu, you are correct in that they merged Navionics data with their cards and what they already had.

For SonarChart live, which is a similar process for QuickDraw. I haven't used QuickDraw, but SonarChart Live has you set the depth before recording as how far high or low it is.
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Larry3215
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by Larry3215 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:09 pm

tbrinks wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:09 am
Larry3215 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:54 am
tbrinks wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:21 pm


No prob. The good thing about Navionics is that they are constantly being updated with more data from users.
I just downloaded the newest Garmin Lakevu charts. It looks to me like Garmin has finally merged the Navionic data into the Garmin charts. Ive looked at several lakes, including that section of Roosevelt you posted above and the contours are almost identical. Just very minor differences.

Do you know if thats true or not Tyler?

I have another question for you - how does Navionics handle user data in areas where the water level changes on a daily basis - like Roosevelt and most of the lakes around the PNW? Roosevelt can change depth by 30 plus feet at times.

I know from my time using Garmin Qickdraw that 99.99% of users have no clue how to compensate for water level changes in lakes, or tides in the salt. This makes Quickdraw charts from someone you dont know pretty much useless to outright dangerous.

As a result, I am very leery about "user data" when it comes to depths.
To answer your question about the Garmin LakeVu, you are correct in that they merged Navionics data with their cards and what they already had.

For SonarChart live, which is a similar process for QuickDraw. I haven't used QuickDraw, but SonarChart Live has you set the depth before recording as how far high or low it is.
Yes, its the same for Quickdraw. If you want your Sonarchart or Quickdraw maps to match up with the NOAA charts, then you must set the depth offset prior to recording.

BUT..... do you know anyone who actually does that? Or anyone who even knows it needs to be done or how to do it? The Garmin instructions for this setting are very confusing and the setting is buried down in the menus.

As I said before, very few users are going to want to do that because it means the charts you are generating right now will have the "wrong" depths marked. They will be the full pool depths and not the current actual depth. This confuses the heck out of people.

Just as important - the user first has to know what the current water level is relative to full pool. Roosevelt only up-dates the water level at midnight each day as far as I know. So, how is Joe user supposed to even know what the water level is at 8AM the next morning or what it is by 3 PM that day?

Its even worse for tidal areas. Do you know how to find out the current absolute elevation of the ocean surface at any given time in any location you happen to be? I dont know of any way unless you are sitting on top of a data buoy on the hour.

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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by hewesfisher » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:40 am

Roosevelt level data is updated several times daily as you can see here. Move your curser over the blue text for detail. Times and level recorded for today since midnight to 6am:

Midnight - 1268.4'
0100 - 1268.4'
0200 - 1268.3'
0300 - 1268.2'
0400 - 1268.3'
0500 - 1268.5'
0600 - 1268.5'

Just visited Navionics' site and went over areas I have been fishing at Roosevelt for over 10 years while using a Platinum+ chip. Didn't see anything there different than what's on my chip. I know of several "errors" on the chip generated map including underwater rock formations not shown. The "current" map on the website is the same as my map chip. For important ones, I set a way point, others, like location of the "floating toilets/pump out stations" I don't really care about.

Based on my map review on Navionics' site I'd say they're not getting much data from users or not using submitted data. Even the marina layouts are wrong and they haven't changed since we started fishing Roosevelt almost 13yrs ago.
Phil

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tbrinks
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by tbrinks » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:20 am

hewesfisher wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:40 am
Roosevelt level data is updated several times daily as you can see here. Move your curser over the blue text for detail. Times and level recorded for today since midnight to 6am:

Midnight - 1268.4'
0100 - 1268.4'
0200 - 1268.3'
0300 - 1268.2'
0400 - 1268.3'
0500 - 1268.5'
0600 - 1268.5'

Just visited Navionics' site and went over areas I have been fishing at Roosevelt for over 10 years while using a Platinum+ chip. Didn't see anything there different than what's on my chip. I know of several "errors" on the chip generated map including underwater rock formations not shown. The "current" map on the website is the same as my map chip. For important ones, I set a way point, others, like location of the "floating toilets/pump out stations" I don't really care about.

Based on my map review on Navionics' site I'd say they're not getting much data from users or not using submitted data. Even the marina layouts are wrong and they haven't changed since we started fishing Roosevelt almost 13yrs ago.

Navionics will fix any discrepancies you find on the water. The following link allows you to submit a Cartography Discrepancy Report.

http://navionics.force.com/PlugPlay
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hewesfisher
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Re: Which mapping system for roosevelt??

Post by hewesfisher » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:02 am

Correction - I have HotMaps Platinum not Platinum+.
Phil

'09 Hewescraft 20' ProV
150hp Merc Optimax
8hp Merc 4-stroke
Raymarine DS600X HD Sounder
Raymarine a78 MultiFunctionDisplay
Raymarine DownVision
Raymarine SideVision
Baystar Hydraulic Steering
Trollmaster Pro II
Traxstech Fishing System
MotorGuide 75# Thrust Wireless Bow Mount

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