alternative energies, cars, etc

[Dustin07]

When watching the youtube video on the puget sound dying, it got me thinking about pollution, commuting, cars, etc.

On the conversation of alternative energy, would you say you are for or against further research?


I know it may sound like a silly statement, but my actions speak louder than my words and I've done very little for the environment other than clean litter.


The biggest problem I have with alternative energy is cost. I'm going to try to ride my bike more this spring/summer/fall, but as far as long distance commuting goes, cost is the issue. It's hard to trade in a good running 14mpg $5k wrangler or 18mpg Silverado for a $20k prius when it still feels like the technology is so/so. Especially knowing the prius can't get where the wrangler goes, or haul what the silverado hauls.



my buddy and I are experiementing with converting a small honda motorcycle over to hydrogen though, so we'll see how that goes.

[G-Man]

Although I applaud you for thinking about reducing your impact on the environment, Puget Sound is not in it's current condition do to air pollution. It's due to water pollution brought on by just too many folks in the Puget Sound region and not enough pre-planning on how to deal with the waste water and runoff this causes. You can also add to that over development of wetlands and previously unrestricted logging activities to the list of contributors. Too many nutrients in the water allow for a lager than normal algae bloom and once the algae dies it absorbs the oxygen during decomposition. My past contributions to clean water is to use and apply fertilizers sparingly, not to wash my vehicles in the driveway and to make sure my French Drains are working properly.

That being said, I'm all for alternative energy sources and I hope to see the obsolescence of the internal combustion engine in my lifetime. As the price of the controllers drop, I will be more and more tempted to convert a vehicle to straight electric power.

[Dustin07]

Although I applaud you for thinking about reducing your impact on the environment, Puget Sound is not in it's current condition do to air pollution. It's due to water pollution brought on by just too many folks in the Puget Sound region and not enough pre-planning on how to deal with the waste water and runoff this causes. You can also add to that over development of wetlands and previously unrestricted logging activities to the list of contributors. Too many nutrients in the water allow for a lager than normal algae bloom and once the algae dies it absorbs the oxygen during decomposition. My past contributions to clean water is to use and apply fertilizers sparingly, not to wash my vehicles in the driveway and to make sure my French Drains are working properly.

That being said, I'm all for alternative energy sources and I hope to see the obsolescence of the internal combustion engine in my lifetime. As the price of the controllers drop, I will be more and more tempted to convert a vehicle to straight electric power.

well personally, my jeep does create that runoff you're talking about

[A9]

On the conversation of alternative energy, would you say you are for or against further research?

The biggest problem I have with alternative energy is cost. I'm going to try to ride my bike more this spring/summer/fall, but as far as long distance commuting goes, cost is the issue. It's hard to trade in a good running 14mpg $5k wrangler or 18mpg Silverado for a $20k prius when it still feels like the technology is so/so. Especially knowing the prius can't get where the wrangler goes, or haul what the silverado hauls.

Definitely for further research of alternative energy sources. We cannot continue to use fossil fuels at the rates we are now...

Our planet is only getting more populated and so our consumption of fossil fuels isn't looking like it's going to decrease. We need to keep investing in alternative energy to find a clean, renewable source.

[Rollin with Rolland]

my buddy and I are experiementing with converting a small honda motorcycle over to hydrogen though, so we'll see how that goes.

I'm pretty sure Honda has a hydrogen fuel cell motorbike. Not sure if it still a prototype or commercially available, but man, what fun that would be. My understanding is that Hydrogen does not compress as easily as other gases (o2, propane, ect.) therefore storage (tank size) is a problem. Especially on a bike. I also heard you could purchase a H+ fuel cell for around 5k. Good luck though, it will be fun. If I was an engineer, I'd try for a custom bio-diesel motorcycle...:bounce:

[Anglinarcher]

We will need to go to an alternate energy source(s) soon enough, but we need to do it intelligently, not emotionally.

You are correct to consider the technology suspect on hybrids. In the short term, they are not designed as a one size fits all vehicle. If you can afford two vehicles, they may be great, but if I need another vehicle to fish or hunt or haul with, then you are requiring additional resources to make the second vehicle. Net result, cheep and better for the environment to stay with the current vehicle.

What about all of the batteries that will soon need to be replaced in the Hybrids? Even with recycling, the impact to the environment will be devastating. We are, I fear, getting the cart before the horse.

OK, alcohol fuels? Simply stated, we are converting food to fuel. That trade is not going to work for the world in general. Already people overseas that counted on our corn and paying more or getting less.

Hydrogen? I love that option, but how do we get it. Hydrogen is currently made from fossil fuels. No net gain here. You can make Hydrogen from water, by passing electricity through it, but again, how are we getting the electricity? Fossil fuels, dams, windmills, etc. We are trading one for another, with a loss of efficiency, and therefore more environment damage in the process. The solution is atomic power, but under the current world fear-mentality, that is not going to happen.

How about Methane Ice. Yes, it exist, do an INTERNET search. Not going to happen for a long time if ever.

All agree that we need something, but currently we need more research, more true scientist doing real work, and less propaganda from the social engineers.

I fear we are in for a tough time in the future. The shame is that there are sufficient alternatives available, but not the social or political will to take advantage of them.

[Gisteppo]

The future is actually in changing CONSUMPTION....

If a viable electric car was out there for my particular commute (13 miles one way at speeds over 60) I would already own it. The aforementioned issue with batteries is actually a farce, as battery recycling stations are all over this state, and almost every molecule of a battery can be recycled. The major material concerns (Lead, lithium, etc) have been found to be eminently recyclable into new batteries instead of being stored. Unfortunately the tech is still pricey because of commodities costs and a lack of bulk construction of certain items.

Google up AltairNano , their battery is a feat of tech, and will be available to the public in the next 12 months or so.

I switched from my 9mpg truck to a 22mpg truck. Wife went to a 30mpg car, quit her job, works from home for herself. Heat the house with geothermal heat using water and small amounts of electricity. Heat pump also gives us heated water for our water heater to reduce energy use. Water the yard with the waste.

All of my boats MUST get at minimum of 5mpg. This is no mean feat in boats, as the average boat runs at 2-3 mpg. If I can fish at a place that I can row to, the power boat stays tied to the dock and I row my way there.

Water quality...

We use a septic system that is vaulted and treated. Washing dishes we use only phosphate free detergents (made mandatory last year county wide). Lawn is mulched and aerated instead of chemically treated/fertilized, reducing both fossil fuel usage to create them and pollutants later.

Only eating wild fish, attempt to eat local foods, and produce many items in our own garden.

Conservation and environmental protection starts at home.

E

[swedefish4life1]

Sleep now, rest you pack a 38 cal to finish:cyclopsan food is not your problem! LOL

[Anglinarcher]

The future is actually in changing CONSUMPTION....

If a viable electric car was out there for my particular commute (13 miles one way at speeds over 60) I would already own it. The aforementioned issue with batteries is actually a farce, as battery recycling stations are all over this state, and almost every molecule of a battery can be recycled. The major material concerns (Lead, lithium, etc) have been found to be eminently recyclable into new batteries instead of being stored. Unfortunately the tech is still pricey because of commodities costs and a lack of bulk construction of certain items.

Google up AltairNano , their battery is a feat of tech, and will be available to the public in the next 12 months or so.

I switched from my 9mpg truck to a 22mpg truck. Wife went to a 30mpg car, quit her job, works from home for herself. Heat the house with geothermal heat using water and small amounts of electricity. Heat pump also gives us heated water for our water heater to reduce energy use. Water the yard with the waste.

All of my boats MUST get at minimum of 5mpg. This is no mean feat in boats, as the average boat runs at 2-3 mpg. If I can fish at a place that I can row to, the power boat stays tied to the dock and I row my way there.

Water quality...

We use a septic system that is vaulted and treated. Washing dishes we use only phosphate free detergents (made mandatory last year county wide). Lawn is mulched and aerated instead of chemically treated/fertilized, reducing both fossil fuel usage to create them and pollutants later.

Only eating wild fish, attempt to eat local foods, and produce many items in our own garden.

Conservation and environmental protection starts at home.

E

If the AltairNano battery does indeed prove to be what they claim, and I still remain skeptical, then much of my battery argument will indeed have fallen away, and to research and technology. Previous claims have been made, by other companies and Universities, in the past, and proved to be, well, premature. Still, the cost of recycling batteries is not, as you claim, a farce. Yes, almost all of a battery can be recycled, but at a high cost in materials and energy. Of course, the cost of not doing it is far worse. This is not based on environmental religious beliefs, but on simple engineering analysis. Nevertheless, more research should and must be done in this direction.

As for the electric car, where does the electricity come from? It takes Dams, Coal, Gas, Oil, and to a lesser extent Wind Mills, to create that electricity. We are shifting the resource from one need to another. That is not conservation, that is robbing Peter to pay Paul. And would you really expect to have multiple cars, added resources to make an additional vehicle? I will be honest on this one, it is a toss up to me. Currently, the cost of a an electric car, and the varied type of work I do, would preclude getting one. I see two issues here, one cost, and two, range.

You said "I switched from my 9mpg truck to a 22mpg truck. Wife went to a 30mpg car, quit her job, works from home for herself. Heat the house with geothermal heat using water and small amounts of electricity. Heat pump also gives us heated water for our water heater to reduce energy use. Water the yard with the waste." I respect you for this, and quite frankly, would appreciate advice on how you are doing your geothermal. Smart idea for those of us that can. Like you, my current truck was a major upgrade in MPG, and I picked up a second vehicle with even higher MPG for my out of town work when I don't need to haul. I am looking into solar cells for the roof of my house, but would need to cut down an 85 foot Bull Pine first - not sure about that trade off. I have been looking into using Gray water to water my lawn, but advice on how you are doing this would be welcome.

How in the world did you get an MPG rating on your boats, before you bought them. I asked everyone I knew at the time when I bought my last boat. I seem to get about 4 mpg, but that is more luck then planning. I am not questioning what you did, smart, very smart, I just want you to tell us how you got your numbers before you purchased. Future boat purchases would benefit from this information.

I think we kind of got off thread on this one, but what I see is an attempt to do the right thing, and in many respects, you are. I think we all would benefit from you telling us HOW you did these things.

[Anglinarcher]

my buddy and I are experiementing with converting a small honda motorcycle over to hydrogen though, so we'll see how that goes.

I'm pretty sure Honda has a hydrogen fuel cell motorbike. Not sure if it still a prototype or commercially available, but man, what fun that would be. My understanding is that Hydrogen does not compress as easily as other gases (o2, propane, ect.) therefore storage (tank size) is a problem. Especially on a bike. I also heard you could purchase a H+ fuel cell for around 5k. Good luck though, it will be fun. If I was an engineer, I'd try for a custom bio-diesel motorcycle...:bounce:

Rollin, there are two type so of hydrogen engines, one is an internal combustion engine (ICE) and the other is a fuel cell engine.

The ICE burns Oxygen with Hydrogen to make water, but has all of the inherent inefficiencies of the ICE. Still, the exhaust is clean. The problem is that Hydrogen is a gas at room temperature and pressure, so to get a tank to hold enough to get you anyway, it needs to be liquefied. This is done at extreme pressure, and a pressurized tank is inherently dangerous in an accident. Additionally, a drop of liquid Hydrogen has far less energy (BTUs) then a drop of gas, which has less then a drop of diesel. Still, with research, there is hope. But, back to the question, how do you get the Hydrogen? Remember, you don't drill for Hydrogen, you get it from processing fossil fuels, or from processing methane, or from splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen.

The second option is the fuel cell. The same issues exist with storage, but the fuel cell converts the reaction into electricity at a much higher efficiency, over 90% compared to about 35% efficiency of ICEs. A fuel cell engine is extremely clean, but again, how do we get the hydrogen?

There is a law in physics call the conversation of mass and energy. It states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, just converted back and forth into energy. E=MC^2 This same lay also tells us that it take just as much energy to make water as we get when we combine hydrogen and oxygen back into water. So, considering Hydrogen does not grow on trees, where do we get the energy to make it?

[Gisteppo]

If the AltairNano battery does indeed prove to be what they claim...

Check with the DOD, they have 60,000 batteries in service in Iraq as we speak.

As for the electric car, where does the electricity come from? It takes Dams, Coal, Gas, Oil, and to a lesser extent Wind Mills, to create that electricity. We are shifting the resource from one need to another. That is not conservation, that is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

In our area, the power is generated by predominantly dams, with some coal and some wind. I would rather pay for that power than send another stinking filthy penny to Saudi Arabia.

Did you also note that cars such as the Tesla roadster are putting up numbers in the 1.5 cents to the mile range?

As for the economies of various items, start a thread on them and I will give you all the details on making a home more efficient, cars, etc.

On boats, I can typically calculate fuel economy on most outboard boats (esp yamaha's) if I get a particular set of parameters from you. My numbers run within .5mpg on average. If anyone wants that info (or if we want to start a sticky that I can answer whenever someone wants it), start a thread about your boat and ask.

This same lay also tells us that it take just as much energy to make water as we get when we combine hydrogen and oxygen back into water. So, considering Hydrogen does not grow on trees, where do we get the energy to make it?

Wouldn't this be a fantastic usage of offshore power generation? Wind and wave generators anchored WAAAY offshore. Generation platforms at sea that not only take seawater and split it out into liquified H, but can also desalinate it, sell the salt, sell the liquid oxygen, and be reasonably self-sufficient in their practice.

E

[Rollin with Rolland]

So, considering Hydrogen does not grow on trees, where do we get the energy to make it?

I'm no expert AA. I did read this, and although it has it's flaws, it's not to bad.


Stuart Island Energy Initiative



The Hydrogen is gathered from the atmosphere (through water maybe?) by use of solar power. The solar power provides the electricity to separate the H+ and store it in large tanks to be used in the fuel cell. Like I said, I'm no expert. It sound like the whole process is pretty energy consumptive (requires more input that output), but it is self perpetuating and requires NO EXTERNAL POWER INPUTS (ie fossil fuels).

What I noticed was that the total solar power used was like 3 times more than the power generated from the Hydrogen fuel cell (can't remember exact numbers) So I thought, "why not just use solar power directly, and skip all that energy loss to store hydrogen?"

Well, here comes the Where do we get Hydrogen? Solar power is renewable, so hell, use 10 megawatts of solar power to get 1 megawatt of useable, fixed, compressed Hydrogen. Hell, use 1000 megawatts of solar power to get 1 megawatt of useable hydrogen. I mean, the solar power is virtually free after a period of time, then eventually the hydrogen production is free as well. (no idea if these numbers are anything close to real, just threw them out there to help explain my thoughts)

We can't put a solar panel on a motorcycle, but we can use that solar panel to fix and store hydrogen, which in turn the storage tank can be placed on a motorcycle.


Any thoughts?

[Anglinarcher]

Check with the DOD, they have 60,000 batteries in service in Iraq as we speak.

I know the DOD is testing them, and they are at least as good as the old style, but my understanding from the boys I keep in touch with is that the jury is still out. I hope, but I remain suspect for now.

In our area, the power is generated by predominantly dams, with some coal and some wind. I would rather pay for that power than send another stinking filthy penny to Saudi Arabia.

LOL - I am with you brother on that one. I have a few other OPEC countries to add to that list. Still, on a fishing site, you dare to even consider NOT TEARING those Dams out? I will leave this to others to argue, simply because I consider hydroelectric power to be cleaner and more environmentally sound then many of our alternates.

Did you also note that cars such as the Tesla roadster are putting up numbers in the 1.5 cents to the mile range?

I have heard that. My concerns are several, but subject to education. Are these numbers based on power cost alone, or on factored cost for the life of the vehicle considering the original cost, battery replacement, and energy cost?

Also, if I recall correctly, the car is very small. For home to office commuting, it sounds good. But, for home or office to Libby Montana, or Bridgeport Washington, it lacks sufficient safety and range and yes, even comfort.

As for the economies of various items, start a thread on them and I will give you all the details on making a home more efficient, cars, etc.

You should do that, people look to see who started the thread, and I am not the expert on that subject. I am becoming LEEDS certified, and as an Engineer I know a lot, but I am still learning as well.

On boats, I can typically calculate fuel economy on most outboard boats (esp Yamaha's) if I get a particular set of parameters from you. My numbers run within .5mpg on average. If anyone wants that info (or if we want to start a sticky that I can answer whenever someone wants it), start a thread about your boat and ask.

Marc follows these threads, let's see what Marc says?

This same lay also tells us that it take just as much energy to make water as we get when we combine hydrogen and oxygen back into water. So, considering Hydrogen does not grow on trees, where do we get the energy to make it?

Wouldn't this be a fantastic usage of offshore power generation? Wind and wave generators anchored WAAAY offshore. Generation platforms at sea that not only take seawater and split it out into liquefied H, but can also desalinate it, sell the salt, sell the liquid oxygen, and be reasonably self-sufficient in their practice.

I disagree with you - they would not be "reasonably self-sufficient". THEY WOULD BE COMPLETELY SELF-SUFFICIENT. OK, now you caught me, I did a college paper on this one, and my primitive analysis, and one done in the 1920's even by a German Scientist, indicate that the ability to produce power this way is incredible. I don't really know why we don't do it now.

[Gisteppo]

What I noticed was that the total solar power used was like 3 times more than the power generated from the Hydrogen fuel cell (can't remember exact numbers) So I thought, "why not just use solar power directly, and skip all that energy loss to store hydrogen?"

BINGO!!!!

I have heard that. My concerns are several, but subject to education. Are these numbers based on power cost alone, or on factored cost for the life of the vehicle considering the original cost, battery replacement, and energy cost?

These are lifelong factors involved numbers, to include periodic cell replacement. Also on your range and usability, they have developed a sedan and wagon on similar platforms with more capacity that will be released in the year to come.

THEY WOULD BE COMPLETELY SELF-SUFFICIENT. OK, now you caught me, I did a college paper on this one...

See, that's what I love about this country. COMMON GROUND CAN BE FOUND BY ALL! The only concern I see in offshore commercial generation is the sacrificing of fishing grounds, which Cali can attest to. Texas, OTOH, can point to their oil platforms as fantastic fishing sites, so its a tradeoff, based solely on the size of the enforcement area for no-boat traffic.

E

[Anglinarcher]

So, considering Hydrogen does not grow on trees, where do we get the energy to make it?

I'm no expert AA. I did read this, and although it has it's flaws, it's not to bad.


Stuart Island Energy Initiative



The Hydrogen is gathered from the atmosphere (through water maybe?) by use of solar power. The solar power provides the electricity to separate the H+ and store it in large tanks to be used in the fuel cell. Like I said, I'm no expert. It sound like the whole process is pretty energy consumptive (requires more input that output), but it is self perpetuating and requires NO EXTERNAL POWER INPUTS (ie fossil fuels).

What I noticed was that the total solar power used was like 3 times more than the power generated from the Hydrogen fuel cell (can't remember exact numbers) So I thought, "why not just use solar power directly, and skip all that energy loss to store hydrogen?"

Well, here comes the Where do we get Hydrogen? Solar power is renewable, so hell, use 10 megawatts of solar power to get 1 megawatt of useable, fixed, compressed Hydrogen. Hell, use 1000 megawatts of solar power to get 1 megawatt of useable hydrogen. I mean, the solar power is virtually free after a period of time, then eventually the hydrogen production is free as well. (no idea if these numbers are anything close to real, just threw them out there to help explain my thoughts)

We can't put a solar panel on a motorcycle, but we can use that solar panel to fix and store hydrogen, which in turn the storage tank can be placed on a motorcycle.


Any thoughts?

First, I mis-stated something before. Hydrogen, used in an internal combustion engine, will produce some Nitrous Oxide, a pollutant, and water vapor, a known green house gas. It is assumed that the lower combustion temperatures will keep the NO2 down, but I have not seen the results yet. On the other hand, fuel cells don't have the Nitrous Oxide issues, but you would still get the water vapor. Now, how bad is water vapor? In test you can do in your own green house, water vapor is much worse then carbon dioxide as a green house gas, but we don't want to talk about that. In theory, the more water vapor, the more clouds, which block the sun and reduce the green house ............................

OK, off the global warming debate.

Using solar power to produce battery power is a good idea. Still shipping the heavy batteries from one location to another is expensive, and resource intensive. Producing electricity to charge batteries is a better idea, using solar power of course, but only if you have the power grid to move the electricity. So, if the solar cell "farm" was close enough to a populated center, and you have sufficient resources, and the sun is sufficiently consistent, then solar generation is a better way to go. Solar cell farms would be better located in the deserts of the world.

Still, consider that mother nature is just as inefficient as our conversion of water to hydrogen and oxygen. It takes a huge amount of energy to convert solar power (sun) into carbon matter (plants), which is then turned into either coal of animal matter which is then converted into oil. A thousand to one conversion is actually pretty efficient compared to nature. The problem is that we cannot afford to do what mother nature does. There is a law in engineering, a law that states that you can have things cheep, you can have them fast, and you can have them high quality, but of the three, you can only have two at a time. Nature choose to do things with high quality, and cheep, but she takes her own sweet time.

Converting water to Hydrogen fuel, using off-shore platforms, can be efficient, and actually low profile. We can use wave action and/or currents to generate this huge amount of electricity, but this power must be relocated to shore. It is possible to lay underwater power lines, but 10 to 20 mile lines require intermediate transformer stations, and we have yet to develop the technology for this undertaking - thus my support for the additional research.

Converting water to hydrogen fuel from desert environments would require water resources, but power would be more consistent, and more easily transported because we don't need underwater transformers. Nevertheless, we would now need to transport water to the site. In some cases, there are desert areas, like Central and Southern Utah, where alkaline water is available by drilling, and this would be adequate for hydrogen production. We would have a high waste product to deal with as the minerals are left.

In short, there are always trade-offs. We cannot get something for nothing. IF the research proves there are ways to produce this power, and if we have the will power to demand that it be used, we could indeed change our energy sources, but there will always be cost. The question is can we afford the cost.

[Gisteppo]

Using solar power to produce battery power is a good idea. Still shipping the heavy batteries from one location to another is expensive, and resource intensive. Producing electricity to charge batteries is a better idea, using solar power of course, but only if you have the power grid to move the electricity. So, if the solar cell "farm" was close enough to a populated center, and you have sufficient resources, and the sun is sufficiently consistent, then solar generation is a better way to go. Solar cell farms would be better located in the deserts of the world.

Smart grid technology is already being implemented. Major projects are going on all over the West to put up low loss wire in the areas we carry ultra high voltage wires. Also don't discount capacitor technology for power storage, as well as site specific fuel cells. The process can work both directions in a fuel cell system.

It is possible to lay underwater power lines, but 10 to 20 mile lines require intermediate transformer stations, and we have yet to develop the technology for this undertaking - thus my support for the additional research.

Fuel cells, compressed air, compressed gasses, all of it is stored energy with minor losses that are transportable without wire.



I like the theory that we get some projects developed NOW and use those as your proposed research. Instead of drawing lines on paper to see if it works, lets build some plants, generate REAL data, and show what this country can do!

E

[Anglinarcher]

Using solar power to produce battery power is a good idea. Still shipping the heavy batteries from one location to another is expensive, and resource intensive. Producing electricity to charge batteries is a better idea, using solar power of course, but only if you have the power grid to move the electricity. So, if the solar cell "farm" was close enough to a populated center, and you have sufficient resources, and the sun is sufficiently consistent, then solar generation is a better way to go. Solar cell farms would be better located in the deserts of the world.

Smart grid technology is already being implemented. Major projects are going on all over the West to put up low loss wire in the areas we carry ultra high voltage wires. Also don't discount capacitor technology for power storage, as well as site specific fuel cells. The process can work both directions in a fuel cell system.

It is possible to lay underwater power lines, but 10 to 20 mile lines require intermediate transformer stations, and we have yet to develop the technology for this undertaking - thus my support for the additional research.

Fuel cells, compressed air, compressed gasses, all of it is stored energy with minor losses that are transportable without wire.



I like the theory that we get some projects developed NOW and use those as your proposed research. Instead of drawing lines on paper to see if it works, lets build some plants, generate REAL data, and show what this country can do!

E

We have real room for agreement in this matter. I have concerns with the smart grid technology at present, but it is not in the technical feasibility but in the computer driven system vulnerability. We need to get firewalls up first, but otherwise, the idea is ready now and the results are about to come on line.