tribal vs non-tribal guides???

[rancocasrich]

Folks, In my long-distance web search for a guide for this coming February, I read info about some guides being tribal guides and some non-tribal. Is that an influence on my choice of guides? What is the difference? Does one mean anything different than the other? Does one fish different waters than the other? Bigger issue, is it a factor in catching fish? Thanks.

[Drewp]

Tribal guides will have access to waters that non-tribals wont. Does that mean that you will catch more fish? I'm not sure - but possibly.

[A9]

I'd stick with a non-tribal guide. Just my opinion...

[Drewp]

I'd stick with a non-tribal guide. Just my opinion...

Hmmm..... I'd go with a guide that puts fish in the boat. Not sure why that would matter whether or not they were tribal.

[A9]

Amen on the going with a guide that can get you into fish. I personally just don't like indian tribes and their effects on fisheries...Just a personal opinion....

[tnj8222]

Amen on the going with a guide that can get you into fish. I personally just don't like indian tribes and their effects on fisheries...Just a personal opinion....

wow thats pretty straight forward way of saying that. i personaly dont have a problem with any of the tribal fisheries. seems like they took pretty good care of the pacific northwest waters for a long time.

[A9]

Amen on the going with a guide that can get you into fish. I personally just don't like indian tribes and their effects on fisheries...Just a personal opinion....

i personaly dont have a problem with any of the tribal fisheries. seems like they took pretty good care of the pacific northwest waters for a long time.

This was long before dams and human impact and countless other reasons. Back "then" the rivers were choked full of rivers and fish in the sound were plentiful. The amount of salmon returning to rivers today is nothing like it was a ways back...

Now, with all the greed running around by sporties, commercial and indian fishermen, who want to get as many salmon as possible, is taking its toll.

Indians are allowed a certain quota, often times they go well over that quota because no one watches them and if, example, they accidentally catch a steelhead in a net when netting rivers for coho, they will often keep that too. Their fishing practices are terrible and I don't agree with letting them take so much of the quota...

[Toni]

Indians are allowed a certain quota, often times they go well over that quota because no one watches them and if, example, they accidentally catch a steelhead in a net when netting rivers for coho, they will often keep that too. Their fishing practices are terrible and I don't agree with letting them take so much of the quota...

I have seen some "sporties" taken more than their legal quota for the last 30 years. At least the tribes give back.

If you add all the things (sporties, commercial, Indian fishermen, Dams, and Habitat diminished) that are detrimental to the salmon/steelhead it is a wonder that we have any left.

[A9]

Oh I agree Toni. Sporties and Commercials have also been a problem, and are also a problem to our mismanaged fisheries...I just didn't mention that because I was talking about Indians in my last post.

Amen on the "wonder if we have any left...."

I really hope we can actually still be able to catch salmon 25 years from now, and hopefully there will be some wild fish still out there.

[crappie007]

I have an Idea, but I'm not sure, what is the definition for a Sportie?

[A9]

Sport fishermen....

[michaelunbewust]

WOW SAM. ITS YOUR OPINION, AND IM GOING TO LEAVE IT AT THAT, BUT, JUST A LIL INFO FROM MY NEZ PERCE BUDDIES OVER IN SPOKANE. THE WHITE MAN CAME AND THE PLENTIFUL FISHERIES DISAPPEARED. ALL THAT YOU STATED IS TRUE AS A CONTRIBUTER (DAMS, ETC.), BUT, THE TRIBES GIVE SO MUCH LOOT BACK TO OUR FISHERIES HERE IN WASHINGTON, AND, HAVE A RIGHT (TREATY'S SIGNED BEFORE YOU WERE BORN), TO ALL THE FISH THEY TAKE. AS FAR AS, NOT BEING WATCHED AND TAKE MORE THAN THERE QUOTA, AGAIN, PROBABLY MISINFORMED, THERE ARE MODERATERS THAT ARE CERTIFIED WITH THE STATE TO STOP THE FISHING WHEN THE QUOTA HITS (IM NOT SURE THE NAME OF THE POSITION). IT IS SOMETHING THE STATE OF WASHINGTON TAKES VERY SERIOUSLY. IF IT WASNT FOR SOME OF THE TRIBAL HATCHERY'S, DO YOU THINK WE WOULD EVEN HAVE ALOT OF OUR FISHERIES TODAY. THIER CASINO MONEY HAS ALSO CONTRIBUTED TO NUMEROUS FISHERY PROJECTS IN OUR STATE. NOW, IF IT WASNT THIER RIGHT TO CATCH AS MANY AS THEY WANT, UNTIL THEY REACH THE QUOTA, BUT, IT IS THIER RIGHT, BECAUSE US IMMIGRANTS CAME OVER TO THIER LANDS AND SCREWED IT ALL UP. THIS WAS ALL DECIDED BEFORE YOU AND I EVER DROPPED A LINE IN THE WATER. IT UPSETS ME LIKE CRAZY TO SEE THEM DIPPING THIER NETS, BUT, ITS THERE RIGHT. AS FAR AS, BETTER GUIDES, EXPERIENCE IS GOING TO BE THE TEST. MY BUDDIES GET ME INTO SOME OF THE BEST ELK HUNTING IN THE WORLD EVRY WINTER, THAT A NON-TRIBAL GUIDE COULD NOT DO, OVER EAST OF MOSCOW,ID. THEY WILL HAVE AREAS TO FISH THAT NON-TRIBALS CANT FISH, UNLESS PERMITTED. EXPERIENCE IS THE KEY, AND, WORD OF MOUTH.

[A9]

Michael. I'm not going to deny the fact that "the white man" came and messed up a lot as well, for both the indians and fish. The had a major impact on both NO question about it, and there's no getting around it. I'm not blaming Indians as the main reason for our current salmon situation, its just that some of the tribes don't follow procedures when it comes to the fishing practices and the quota. You'd be suprised at how loose they actually get watched when they are netting...

Michael, I understand that they also have had a big impact on hatcheries. One notable one that most of us probably don't know is that an Indian tribe was the one who started putting Sockeye into the cedar river (I am 99% sure), and hence our Lake Washington Sockeye fishery today...

And I also failed to mention that yes, tribal guides also have the ability sometimes to fish/hunt in areas that only they are permitted to, and sometimes the tribes will sell permits to non tribal guides to fish there. So that is a possible advantage...

The stuff that influences my opinion to be moreso "negative" of Indian fishing practices is when they get to net right out in front of the Ballard locks (very few, if any Coho in Lake Washington this fall, hence a bad return 3-4 years from now), and when I see Indians netting steelhead and keeping wild steelhead, and when I hear stories this: Indians tossing some pretty colored up silvers out of their nets onto the ground because they can't market them when they are that close to spawning. So instead of letting that fish go back to the river to spawn, they throw it ashore so that fish doesn't get into their next upriver net.

This isn't to say that every tribe is like this. I'm sure some are responsible with the fishing and hunting stuff. But I'm sorry Michael, it sounds like our opinions disagree here, but I've heard and seen many stories that have made me, lets just say frustrated, with Indians and their fishing practices...

[michaelunbewust]

YOU DO BRING UP SOME GOOD POINTS SAM, BUT, REALIZE THIS, WE HAVE FISHERIES TODAY, NOT BECAUSE OF OUR GOVERNMENT, BUT, THE TRIBES GETTING INVOLVED, AND APPLYING THIER VAST FINANCIAL CLOUT. YOU ARE CORRECT ON THE CEDAR. I LIVE 2 BLOCKS FROM IT, AND, THANKS TO THE TRIBES, I WALK DOWN TO THE PARK AND ALWAYS LOOK OVER THE BRIDGE TO THE SPAWNING SALMON, AND, THANK THE TRIBES EACH AND EVRY TIME. IT MAKES ME SICK, ALSO, TO WATCH THEM NET FISH AFTER FISH, OR WASTE FISH, OR RETAIN STEELHEAD, BUT I HAD A HISTORY LESSON OUT ON MITIGATION LAND AT THE RESERVATION THAT REALLY OPENED MY EYES TO WHAT MY PEOPLE HAVE DONE TO THESE FISHERIES, AS WELL AS, THE NATIVE AMERICANS. THOSE GUYS YOU AND I HAVE SEEN DO THIS, ARE A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE TRIBAL MEMBERS. JUST LIKE WE HAVE GUYS KEEPING MORE THAN THIER LIMITS OF WALLEYE AT POTHOLES WHEN THE NET PENS GO UP (to loosely patrolled) EVRY HERITAGE HAS ITS BAD GUYS. ALLS WE CAN DO IS BE A VOICE, AND USE OUR PHONES TO PUT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE BEHIND BARS. I DO LIKE HOW YOU ALWAYS DEFEND YOUR OPINION, im the same way!HA! NOW BACK TO THE THREAD. R, JUST DO A LIL MORE HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU COME, AND, KEEP ASKING THE QUESTIONS, BECAUSE YOU WILL FIND ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW RIGHT HERE ON THIS SITE (ALOT OF SMART, EXPERIENCED FISHER-PEOPLE).

[A9]

Yep I agree that some of our tribes have had a good share in allowing us to have fisheries, and the actions of just a few of the netting members of the tribe give the entire tribe the bad name....And without a doubt the sporties go often unwatched too much. Unfortunately honest people aren't as easy to come by anymore, and thanks to the greed of a few individuals, we have to suffer when they take more then their share and keep putting small dents in our fisheries..

Ranco,I'd get a hold of every guide your interested, ask him a few questions then figure out if you wanna go with him or someone else. Sorta like an interview process.

[tnj8222]

Oh I agree Toni. Sporties and Commercials have also been a problem, and are also a problem to our mismanaged fisheries...I just didn't mention that because I was talking about Indians in my last post.

Amen on the "wonder if we have any left...."

I really hope we can actually still be able to catch salmon 25 years from now, and hopefully there will be some wild fish still out there.

since you dont like everybody but C & R fishers you might as well change your first post to "I personally just don't like People and their effects on fisheries...Just a personal opinion...."

not trying to rag on you or anything i just thought your opinion was pretty harsh and actually sounded racist.

[iPodrodder]

Guys! Please! Ranco's every post doesn't have to be a springboard for blasting other's opinions.

Ranco, I apologize. WL.com is usually not like this, we haven't had a great time this week keeping things civil.

As for guides, I would go with tribal, just for the sake of having extra water. Don't quote me on it, but non-tribal and tribal are probably about the same in experience, but the extra water is a factor.

[rancocasrich]

Folks, I greatly appreciate your interest in educating me about the local fishing scene. I don't judge any of the opinions harshly. I read, consider and seek more info. Since my daughter, whom we are visiting, lives in Moclips, I would prefer a guide who is located not too far from there. Right now, I have a recommendation on a tribal guide through a fishing friend of hers. This seems like a possibly good situation that I will pursue. Please continue to offer further opinions and info on the steelhead pursuit. I am excited to have the chance to go after this beautiful fish.

Do I have a chance if I have time one day to drive somewhere and walk to water and wet a line? I do plan to bring some tackle with me. Any suggestions?

If anyone would like a fishing partner on another day during the week of February 3 - 9, let me know. I could reciprocate the hospitality if you are ever in the Philadelphia area. I could also send more personal info in a seperate e-mail. Thanks, Ranco (The Rancocas is a NJ tributary of the Delaware River)

[A9]

ipod,
It's not a blasting opinion board. It's actually a good debate and thru it me and Michael have found things we agree on...If you wanna hear heated debates about Indian fishing and what not, I can show you some of those on other forums....This is actually VERY mild here for one of the most heated debates I see on fishing boards (Indians and Sealions being #1 and #2)

Tnj, I think it's unfair of you to call me out and say I'm racist and I only like C&R fishermen and make that weird statement. I am not racist by any means (part of my family is Cherokee indian) and I keep fish myself and have no problem with keeping fish as long as the guidelines by which keeping fish are followed. If you were a bigger salmon fishermen you would have an opinion and understand more about the subject.

Ranco, I'm quite jealous about your good opportunity to hook into a fantastic fish. They are without a doubt the most elusive saltwater/river fish here in WA and you are coming to WA at a great time of the year to fish in the best part of the state for the native run. Please, let us know how you do when you do get out to go fishing....

[iPodrodder]

I know its not quite blasting, but I think we should restrain ourselves until our new members can get comfortable around here. If he gets no info on guides but some debate on indian fishing, we might lose a member. It's all fine, just don't want to lose a valuable posting member.