Skok-chat

[FishBaitThe2nd]

Thanks ODH!
And nope, i dont fish by the bridge. I fish in the one hole by hunter farms and thats it !

[FishBaitThe2nd]

Ive hit the 200 poiund mark, im at 203 pounds.

[dicinu]

Mike that is agreeable what you wrote but as Metal stated fish half to face up stream to survive. A couple things come to mind with that comment they for one would never be found in the salt water if this was the case. some fish cannot Sleep so to say if they do they will drown. Salmon is not one of those fish is it harder for the fish to get air over the gills being dragged in Backwards Maybe. but as you said it should be a lot of dead fish from being brought in every which direction.

But for Metal to make a Blanket statement I really wanted him to present his facts for such a statement...

Fishbait good job on the fishing

[Mike Carey]

I've worked and volunteered at fish hatcheries. And I am couple quarters away from getting my degree in natural resources and water quality so i know what I'm talking about. Dicinu if you have any questions on this matter you can talk to Matt McDaniels Manager at the white river hatchery to answer your questions. But for the rest of you fishing the skok i don't care how you fish i just don't like the lifting of the rods 12 times per drift. But if the wdfw allows it so party on I guess. But my guess is it will be short lived.

With all due respect for your almost having your degree, I work in a field where siting research is required for these types of discussions. I'm wondering if you have a specific reference you can site for us to look at. Just taking your word for it isn't really going to cut it, and being directed to talk to someone else isn't, either. Like I said, I did a few searches and couldn't find anything specific. Intuitively I would go with your statement, I do think dragging a fish around backwards would drown it, but I don't have anything firm to base that on.
The question is also a matter of degree - just how much dragging a fish backwards will drown it? I don't think the act of catching a fish with hook and line is going to do it, but I do think the act of snagging and trolling around for a hour would.

[Gringo Pescador]

The question is also a matter of degree - just how much dragging a fish backwards will drown it? I don't think the act of catching a fish with hook and line is going to do it, but I do think the act of snagging and trolling around for a hour would.

But then, hooking a fish in the mouth and trolling around for an hour is going to do the damage as well..

[Mike Carey]

Agreed and seen with shakers in the salt.

[OFFDAAHOOK]

well we all fair people here.. so mental wheres the reference on drowning salmon. we waiting

[Bodofish]

That's got to be about the silliest thing I've ever heard of!!! Water over the gills is water over the gills don't matter if from the front or back Bodosnag you obviously have no clue what your talking about. That perhaps is the most incorrect and ignorant statement ever put on this site thanks for the laughs

Tisk, tisk, name calling....... Little boy who did student work at a hatchery. Wow.... Well I have too and much, much more, I sure don't know where you're come up with your silly notions. But hey like I said before go find your self a nice PETA meeting or something and have a nice day.

[Brat Bonker]

hey fishbait what do you do with all the fish that you catch if you do not eat it?

[natetreat]

The question is also a matter of degree - just how much dragging a fish backwards will drown it? I don't think the act of catching a fish with hook and line is going to do it, but I do think the act of snagging and trolling around for a hour would.

But then, hooking a fish in the mouth and trolling around for an hour is going to do the damage as well..

That's my point. The reason fish face upstream in a river is that they can't really swim backwards. If you can only go forwards, and you are inherently lazy, trying to conserve energy for spawning, you're going to tread water facing upstream. If you face sideways, you're going to have the water pushing you downstream, and since no backwards swimming is going to happen, you're going to face upstream.

Salmon need water a certain temperature, with adequate oxygen content, but they certainly don't need to face upstream to breathe. What makes them different than their very close cousins the rainbow trout, native char and other lake dwelling fish where current is non-existent. What about sockeye, returning to a lake, current-less. Or kokanee spending their entire life in a big deep lake. Or the landlocked coho in riffe, or the kings in lake chelan. Why aren't they all belly up?

If you bring a fish in backwards, by the side, with 30 pound test, and broomstick them in, you are doing way less damge to a fish than the "legal" way to catch fish on the Skok. Fish MUST be hooked inside the mouth. Which means that they're swallowing whatever it is. Their tongue is directly connected to their gills. Which are the fish equivalent of lungs. 80% of their mouth is lungs and throat, and a hook there will cause them to bleed out slowly and die. When you're worried about wild fish mortality, we should encourage snagging to limit the time spent physically exhausting the fish, danger of cutting gills and bleeding them out. Would you rather be dragged to shore by a hook in your lungs or by hook in your butt? If given the choice, hands down put a treble in my thigh. My personal opinion on combat fisheries like the skokomish is that the first two hatchery fish you bring in, you bonk and then you're done. That would cut back on fish mortality, give other anglers more space on the river, decrease the pressure on the system and limit the amount of lines in the water. Those of us that go for the biters would have a better chance at having fish that aren't spooked, those who choose to get their meat limit quick and dirty will still leave with their fish. At some point you have to make a distinction about what is more destructive.

And if anyone can give me a citation of any scientific source that says that pulling a salmon in backwards drowns them, or fish have to face upstream or die, I'll bite my tongue and send you five bucks.

[Bodofish]

[Bodofish]

Very hard to tell when you resort to calling names, very childish.

[R.Ton]

I thought I was the only one who seen that rvr_fshr
not cool.

[dicinu]

Salmonids move water through their gills and absorb air from the water as it moves through the mouth and along the gills. After they close their mouth they then push the water out through the gills in their throat. These special set of gills are made up of rows of very fine folds of tissue similar to skin. The salmon absorb the air through these special gill cells. If a salmonid is not facing the current whether its a saltwater tidal current or facing upstream in river or stream they are not breathing. For a more detailed description read The Behavior and Ecology of Pacific Salmon and Trout by Thomas Quinn. Oh and bodo I'm a full grown conservative man. Definately not a little boy or a PETA member

you are correct with when a fish opens it's mouth to move water over the gills that is how they breathe they wag the tail fin and walla forward force is pushing water over the gills.

Okay your Logic has me confused once again so if what you are saying is true Which it is not true. how would Salmon get back down stream. I am not talking about Spawned out salmon but the babies they are having? They just don't magically appear in the salt water?

I understand Fish and Gills and how they Breathe they go up stream they come down stream. Are holding their breath for a long time to get back down stream?

they Gulp water get the air from the water as it rolls over the gills and that is how they breathe nothing to do with going up stream.

I am sorry I am far from a Marine Biologist I am just using Common sense... ( Please don't take this as a personal attack, it is not meant or directed at you)

asking a co-worker of yours will not help justify your statement.

[natetreat]

I'm not making a "pro-snagging" comment. I'm making the point that by the logic in this thread, snagging and retaining fish will be the best way to limit mortality of all of the fish in the system, not just the wild fish. The Skokomish has a hit 2 and quit rule, as long as they are legally hooked. Why not make it a hit any 2 and quit?

People have been flossing fish since my grandad was fishing. Go out with a guide in Alaska for reds and he'll have you lining fish left and right. It's been a part of salmon angling culture since they decided to tackle fish with a rod and reel. There is nothing new, nothing unique about this technique. Most of the guys that are so vehemently opposed to it I find haven't really grown up combat fishing, around big runs.

Is snagging unsportsmanlike? Probably. Do I encourage my clients to snag? Nope. But these hatchery fish are a "food" fish, not a sport fish. They are meat fisheries, and personally, I don't see the big deal about folks getting hot about guys out there to put food on the table bringing fish home. Hit two and stop would maintain the fishery. It's not like these hatchery fish are going to do anything. The hatchery gets its quota, the rest either go home with us, or go to safeway in the native gill nets.

You're never going to get people to change the way they fish, short of putting every drift fishermen in jail. Like I said, this is how folks fish. And before you call me a pro snagger, a flosser or question my professionalism, read my argument. What I'm proposing is better for the fish. Turn it into an egg fishery is another option. We'll see how that works on the Samish. But the fact remains that that wild fish that swallows the roe like kings are prone to do, is 50% more likely to die than a fish brought in quick by the tail upon release.

[FishBaitThe2nd]

hey fishbait what do you do with all the fish that you catch if you do not eat it?

Ive got some friends that are my neighbors that like to eat it, also my grandparents (my gaurdians) like to eat it as well as my brother.

I caught a SILVER today, about 8 pounds.
Also a 12 pound chrome buck

[natetreat]

Coho for sure! Right on. More and more will be showing up, and I love 'em!

[knotabassturd]

I believe salmonids have their circulatory and respiratory systems set up so that oxygen is much more efficiently taken in with water moving thru the mouth and 'over' the gills.

if you drag a fish (salmon especially) backwards thru river current the opposite is happening to some degree (water is moving in opposite direction which anatomically is quite inefficient for the gills to function properly with O2/oxygen uptake) and thus much less oxygen is able to be taken in per respiration. The fish will struggle and suffer from lack of O2 much quicker IMO being dragged in backwards than if head first (comparing same amount of time fought for apples/apples comp).

Kinda think of someone with COPD or asthma having a hard time breathing, then put them at high altitude that's the equivalent of a fish trying to respire going backwards thru water. They're gonna be hurting (all parties).

When a fish is sitting in a lake, most fish have enough musculature and anatomical structure around their mouths and are anatomically set up to create pressure differences so that water moves thru the mouth and over the gills (from head to tail direction) when respiring. So even with lack of passive lake water movement, the fish itself creates that movement with the motion of respiration. As long as there's enough O2 in the water, they'll be fine.


So even if a fish is not 'moving', the simple muscular movements of respiration allow the water to then move in a way as if the fish was in current (water draws from fish's mouth area back over gills and exits out the gills).

I'm only giving my opinion here so don't put too much into it.
But it is kind of similar to why some sharks drown if they don't move forward. Same general philosophy.

Here's a bit on sharks that IMO hints at the relevant part for fish, i.e. mouth and gill anatomy plays a big part in determining which fish or sharks are able to do better (or worse) if not able to have water flowing consistently thru mouth and over gills.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... -drown.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again this is just my opinion and typed this up fast so fogive the crudeness in explanation LOL. Just trying to get the jist of it out there. And not taking sides with/against anyone LOL . I can understand/sympathize to some degree with all the viewpoints being mentioned here. Good luck everyone on the water though

[FishBaitThe2nd]

Coho for sure! Right on. More and more will be showing up, and I love 'em!

There were 2 up there today that i saw. The one i got and a guy across the river

[Brat Bonker]

yeah the silvers are coming through now, quil has some and won't be long when the skok starts to pick up some too.